Terminator 3 - SPOILER filled discussion

[Dagger75]

Time travel movies always annoy me a bit because sometimes they cause such blatant paradoxs and I think about it for to long.

I haven't seen T3 but had it ruined for me at work so I decided to read the spoilers.

I guess I better see it cause now I am all confused.

 

[Alzrius]

I don't see T1 as a paradox, because I think a paradox is when you do something to make that future impossible that prompted your action.

I'm always calling a time loop a paradox and vice versa; darn semantics.

Reese was always Connor's father. He was chosen to go back in time because he was. They probably only knew about because of Connor's foreknowledge. It's a time loop that handles itself perfectly, and there is no reason for there to be another timeline without that loop, so I don't understand why he mandates that such a timeline existed.

It's because those time loops are infinite in both the future and the past. It's the past one that boggles some people, so they maintain that it must have had a single starting point, when in fact the nature of the time loop itself means it has no beginning or end - thats why its infinite.

So, basically, IMO, T1 is fine by itself, T2 is where the timelines have to be rewritten.

Which is where T3 comes in.

That doesn't mean you have to force T2/T3's events to give T1 another timeline though.

Agree completely.

Originally posted by Look_a_Unicorn
Just to throw in my $0.022 (we have GST in Australia), Kai Lord & Alzrius both had well structured & logical arguments, your counterpoints were relevant & only in the last posts did the edge of irritation begin to show. So thanks for such an interesting debate.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. When they don't become flame wars, I love debates like those as well.

I mean you both understood your own arguments so well, that the train of thought required to understand the other's argument could not coexist with the contradicting viewpoint.

Well, I don't know about that. For me, I understood where Kai was coming from, I just felt that the (completely theoretical) mechanics of the situation negated the basis for his theory. I understood where he was coming from, I just thought it was wrong basically.

I think it would be great fun to sit down and have a few beers each and listen to you guys debate other issues

That probably would be fun.

 

[Enchantress2]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Terminator 3 - SPOILER filled discussion

No, that's not true. Nothing says that. The whole point of the temporal paradox is that it could ONLY have been Reese to begin with...which means the TD device was built...which means Reese had gone back before that...its an infinite paradox.

I completely agree. I thought the whole point was that the older John connor HAD to send Reese back in order for him to exist. Why else would he have given Reese a picture of Sarah? Also, if Reese hadn't been the real father, then that could have affected the future John Connor's decisions. What if this other father had been a real wimp and John had taken after that trait? Then there would REALLY be no hope for mankind.

 

[reapersaurus]

Problems with T3

OK, I wanna bring something else up.

I asked "How does the T-X get there?"

I appreciate Kai Lord's great timeline theories and summary, and I realize that T3 is saying that the military made Skynet now, and this the Terminators.

My problem with the T3 events is not with the back-story - that was pretty inspired, to say "It was inevitable".

However, my problem is with how they showed it play out.
They had some unstoppable, malevolent computer VIRUS taking over the planet, including military installations.
Then they muck it up by suggesting onscreen that the T-X was corrupting systems with her re-programming.
They even left it open that the T-X MAY have caused this deadly virus.

OK, now either way, that's silly as all hell.

Either the T-X spread this virus which led to the birth of the Terminators (a complete impossibility), or a virus did.
A VIRUS?!
Jeez, it reminded me too much of all those emails you get from ignorant computer users that talk about a deadly virus that'll "wipe out your hard drive".
Those are all urban legends, and to have a virus (which is a fairly easy thing to get rid of, once known and innoculated against) be unstoppable is lazy writing. It demoizes viruses, taking advantage of the general public's ignorance about computers, simply for the convenience of having the Terminators be "inevitable".

Another problem I had with it was the incredibly convenient encounters that kept happening, combined with John Connor's complete incompetence.

John was shown driving at unsafe speed on a country road, in a dangerous mode of transportation (a motorcycle), at Night.
He couldn't dodge a deer - and the deer was shown to not exactly jump out at him.
So then he doesn't have ANY contacts - nobody- that can help him out medically, and he of course has no insurance. So he breaks into a vet, and takes either the wrong dose of stolen drugs or the wrong drug completely. (Why doesn't he have a stockpile of drugs, since he knows he doesn't have insurance or an identity?)

The huge plot contrivance here is that it just happens to be the same vet's office that the target of the T-X works at.
But it gets worse.
This target (Ms. Brewster - god, what a crappy name) just happens to get a call from a hypochondriatic cat owner that morning, and goes in way early.
She happens to see John there, and captures him at 'gunpoint' (?!).
Wait - it gets worse.
Ms. Brewster has met John before, don't you know? AND she recognizes him. And she's 'destined' to marry him and be a great soldier. AND she happens to be the daughter of the one man in the world who created/controls SkyNet, AND can help them survive the holocaust.

Oh, the T-X goes to the vet, even though it's too early for anyone (much less her target) to be there.
The T-X _happens_ to find John's blood, and happens to have a blood-analyzing function built into a combat model that is accurate enough to ID a target (I don't know why, but there's something about that technology that rubs me the wrong way - I didn't think DNA testing could do that - it seems too much of a stretch, but I don't know ...).

John Connor - the savior of humanity - seemed completely hopeless and inept the whole movie. The worst was when he was frozen in inactivity when the little gunship came down the hall, yet Kate, who probably had never fought in her whole life, grabbed the gun and took out the gunship.

The T-1000 didn't think to change cars when fleeing pursuit by the authorities? That gave them an easy way for them to follow them to the next staging point for an action sequence : the cemetary.

The authorities even helped the T-X track down John, by escorting the T-X (in the guise of Kate's fiance) to the target.
[ponder] A Terminator wouldn't have waited for the police to escort the fiance - 'she' would have tracked them down herself. It seemed like the writers were treating the T-X as a female that would use deception and guile, instead of a take-charge Terminator. [/ponder]

The T-X _happens_ to arrive right as Kate is walking away. Right as the Hearse happens to be close by, fleeing. She suddenly can run fast - if she could have run that fast the whole movie, I'm sure there would have been some problems in other scenes.

 

[DM_Matt]

Re: Problems with T3

This target (Ms. Brewster - god, what a crappy name) just happens to get a call from a hypochondriatic cat owner that morning, and goes in way early.
She happens to see John there, and captures him at 'gunpoint' (?!).
Wait - it gets worse.
Ms. Brewster has met John before, don't you know? AND she recognizes him. And she's 'destined' to marry him and be a great soldier.

John Connor - the savior of humanity - seemed completely hopeless and inept the whole movie. The worst was when he was frozen in inactivity when the little gunship came down the hall, yet Kate, who probably had never fought in her whole life, grabbed the gun and took out the gunship.

You sort of answered your own question there. Kate's somehow-inborn fighting ability was consistantly portrayed.

The real problem is that John's wasn't.

 

[Alzrius]

Re: Problems with T3

I appreciate Kai Lord's great timeline theories and summary, and I realize that T3 is saying that the military made Skynet now, and this the Terminators.

If you want to see a Terminator timeline that is actually great, go check out Talien's Terminator: Future Fate d20 Modern game. It's free for download from his website: http://members.toast.net/talien/michael/indexfreebies.html

However, my problem is with how they showed it play out.
They had some unstoppable, malevolent computer VIRUS taking over the planet, including military installations.
Then they muck it up by suggesting onscreen that the T-X was corrupting systems with her re-programming.
They even left it open that the T-X MAY have caused this deadly virus.

Actually, they never once suggested pretty much any of that. We're told, flat-out, by Arnold's character that the "virus" is SkyNet infiltrating pretty much everything in preparation for it's takeover. There isn't actually any real virus, that's just what everyone thinks it is.

Either the T-X spread this virus which led to the birth of the Terminators (a complete impossibility), or a virus did.

Nope, neither.

Another problem I had with it was the incredibly convenient encounters that kept happening, combined with John Connor's complete incompetence.

"Convenient encounters" are another way of saying "destiny". Those things happened because they were meant to happen. You ackowledged that yourself above, so why are you complaining about it now?

So then he doesn't have ANY contacts - nobody- that can help him out medically, and he of course has no insurance.

Which is understandable, given that he's just been living as a drifter.

So he breaks into a vet, and takes either the wrong dose of stolen drugs or the wrong drug completely. (Why doesn't he have a stockpile of drugs, since he knows he doesn't have insurance or an identity?)

Because its hard to acquire more without breaking and entering to get some anyway, which is what we see him doing, so where's the problem?

The huge plot contrivance here is that it just happens to be the same vet's office that the target of the T-X works at.

Again, destiny.

Ms. Brewster has met John before, don't you know? AND she recognizes him. And she's 'destined' to marry him and be a great soldier. AND she happens to be the daughter of the one man in the world who created/controls SkyNet, AND can help them survive the holocaust.

Actually, that last point is wrong; General Brewster gives them knowledge of SkyNet, but he has nothing to do with helping them survive. Likewise, that fact that she knew John and recognized him don't seem so far-fetched. That she's destined to marry him and be a kick-ass soldier herself doesn't seem so bad either, since its something she will do, not has done. Anyone who survives that future has to be a soldier.

Oh, the T-X goes to the vet, even though it's too early for anyone (much less her target) to be there.

Too early? Kathrine Brewster is a vet at an emergency animal clinic, and she's on the T-X's hit list...so the T-X checks there when she's near that area. Seems plausible to me.

The T-X _happens_ to find John's blood, and happens to have a blood-analyzing function built into a combat model that is accurate enough to ID a target (I don't know why, but there's something about that technology that rubs me the wrong way - I didn't think DNA testing could do that - it seems too much of a stretch, but I don't know ...).

So instead, she should have ignored the odd patch of blood on the floor? And likewise, the fact that this is a supercomputer android that can think, and must properly ID targets to kill them, makes it veyr conceivable that she has a DNA testing program. And if you think DNA testing can't make a positive ID...well, that's something we've had for years now, you know.

John Connor - the savior of humanity - seemed completely hopeless and inept the whole movie. The worst was when he was frozen in inactivity when the little gunship came down the hall, yet Kate, who probably had never fought in her whole life, grabbed the gun and took out the gunship.

Don't drop "probably's". They're just ways of saying you don't know but think you're right anyway. She was the daughter of a high-ranking military general - is it inconceivable that she's maybe a bit familiar with weapons?

Likewise, John not taking part in the action was because A) doing so would have been suicidal most of the time, and B) the point was that he was struggling to escape his destiny. He didn't fight because he didn't want to fight...he didn't want any of that to happen.

The T-1000 didn't think to change cars when fleeing pursuit by the authorities?

I'm assuming you mean Arnold's character. The need for changing cars was relatively minimal, since it just had to keep him alive for a few hours, and against human authorities it could do that just fine.

That gave them an easy way for them to follow them to the next staging point for an action sequence : the cemetary.

Most directors do want scenes to easily flow into one another. I don't see why that upsets you here.

The authorities even helped the T-X track down John, by escorting the T-X (in the guise of Kate's fiance) to the target.
[ponder] A Terminator wouldn't have waited for the police to escort the fiance - 'she' would have tracked them down herself.

Because of course, when John and Kathrine themselves had no idea where they were going, nor did anyone else save Arnold's character, the T-X should have been able to guess that anyway.

It seemed like the writers were treating the T-X as a female that would use deception and guile, instead of a take-charge Terminator. [/ponder]

You must have been having conniptions when the T-1000 in T2 actually waited at John Conner's house in the guise of his foster mother to try and find him.

Likewise, there is a reason why the Terminators of Arnold's type and up are the Infiltrator series. Because they infiltrate, they use deception to blend in among humans and find their targets.

Also, you say the T-X didn't take charge? Like all those times when she just killed people who stood in her way? You don't seem to be making sense here in what upsets you so much.

The T-X _happens_ to arrive right as Kate is walking away. Right as the Hearse happens to be close by, fleeing. She suddenly can run fast - if she could have run that fast the whole movie, I'm sure there would have been some problems in other scenes.

She does run that fast the whole movie (not to mention she cut straight through the woods), its just that other times, things like a crashing helicopter or a magnetic particle accelerator just put a damper on that.

 

[Tsyr]

Re: Problems with T3

However, my problem is with how they showed it play out.
They had some unstoppable, malevolent computer VIRUS taking over the planet, including military installations.
Then they muck it up by suggesting onscreen that the T-X was corrupting systems with her re-programming.
They even left it open that the T-X MAY have caused this deadly virus.

OK, now either way, that's silly as all hell.

Either the T-X spread this virus which led to the birth of the Terminators (a complete impossibility), or a virus did.
A VIRUS?!
Jeez, it reminded me too much of all those emails you get from ignorant computer users that talk about a deadly virus that'll "wipe out your hard drive".
Those are all urban legends, and to have a virus (which is a fairly easy thing to get rid of, once known and innoculated against) be unstoppable is lazy writing. It demoizes viruses, taking advantage of the general public's ignorance about computers, simply for the convenience of having the Terminators be "inevitable".

As someone else pointed out, this is just wrong. It was Skynet, all along. Period. And I have no problems with Skynet being able to do that.

Another problem I had with it was the incredibly convenient encounters that kept happening, combined with John Connor's complete incompetence.

The whole point of the movie was that the future couldn't be changed in any signifigant way, no matter how hard you tried.

John was shown driving at unsafe speed on a country road, in a dangerous mode of transportation (a motorcycle), at Night.
He couldn't dodge a deer - and the deer was shown to not exactly jump out at him.
So then he doesn't have ANY contacts - nobody- that can help him out medically, and he of course has no insurance. So he breaks into a vet, and takes either the wrong dose of stolen drugs or the wrong drug completely. (Why doesn't he have a stockpile of drugs, since he knows he doesn't have insurance or an identity?)

Ok...

As someone who has hit deer before, they do seem to "jump right out at you", even if they didn't, in reality. They are kinda hard to spot, for how big they are.

Of course he has no contacts... He's worked since the end of T2 towards that exact goal.

Actualy, we have no proof he did take the wrong drugs at all. Kate made a comment about taking the wrong drugs to distract him, but we don't know he did. As for him being passed out on the floor... So? He was tired, of course, had been fighting pain (which makes you more tired), and probably took drugs that make you even more tired still. I have no problem with that... I've done similar things when I've been hurt.

The huge plot contrivance here is that it just happens to be the same vet's office that the target of the T-X works at.
But it gets worse.
This target (Ms. Brewster - god, what a crappy name) just happens to get a call from a hypochondriatic cat owner that morning, and goes in way early.
She happens to see John there, and captures him at 'gunpoint' (?!).
Wait - it gets worse.
Ms. Brewster has met John before, don't you know? AND she recognizes him. And she's 'destined' to marry him and be a great soldier. AND she happens to be the daughter of the one man in the world who created/controls SkyNet, AND can help them survive the holocaust.

Again, the future is making sure it can't be destroyed.

Oh, the T-X goes to the vet, even though it's too early for anyone (much less her target) to be there.
The T-X _happens_ to find John's blood, and happens to have a blood-analyzing function built into a combat model that is accurate enough to ID a target (I don't know why, but there's something about that technology that rubs me the wrong way - I didn't think DNA testing could do that - it seems too much of a stretch, but I don't know ...).

For the first... She was evidently able to hack into the city computers remoltey... How do you know she wasn't tapping her targets communications, or something?

For the second... she isn't exactly a "combat model"... She's an assassin. Designed to infiltrate, hunt down, and then kill. I can very easily believe they would have sort of DNA recognition technology, if such existed. And come on... If you cant stomach DNA recognition technology (Which is futureistic, but not outside the realm of possibility), you shouldn't even be watching a movie that has time travel, artificial inteligence, and ultra-powerful androids and nano-bots as its main themes...

John Connor - the savior of humanity - seemed completely hopeless and inept the whole movie. The worst was when he was frozen in inactivity when the little gunship came down the hall, yet Kate, who probably had never fought in her whole life, grabbed the gun and took out the gunship.

It was an attempt to show that not only was Brewster going to be a valid part of the resistance, but an important one to John. And we have no proof she has never fought in her life... Her father is military, she might have grown up shooting guns and stuff.

The T-1000 didn't think to change cars when fleeing pursuit by the authorities? That gave them an easy way for them to follow them to the next staging point for an action sequence : the cemetary.

The line of Terminators arnold portrays have never been the stealthy types, even back in T1. They can infiltrate ok, if no one questions them much, but subtlety has never been their strong point.

The authorities even helped the T-X track down John, by escorting the T-X (in the guise of Kate's fiance) to the target.
[ponder] A Terminator wouldn't have waited for the police to escort the fiance - 'she' would have tracked them down herself. It seemed like the writers were treating the T-X as a female that would use deception and guile, instead of a take-charge Terminator. [/ponder]

The T-1000 before it was perfectly content to use others to help further its goals... Acting as a police officer, questioning people as a police officer would... They are probably designed to take advantage of whatever they can. Makes sense.

Besides, whats wrong with a deception-and-guile approach? It's not like the last two attempts at brute force have done jack to help Skynet, I could see it changing tactics easily.

And lets not turn this into a feminisim debate, please.

The T-X _happens_ to arrive right as Kate is walking away. Right as the Hearse happens to be close by, fleeing. She suddenly can run fast - if she could have run that fast the whole movie, I'm sure there would have been some problems in other scenes.

Uh, actualy, I don't recall any others where running fast would have been a great asset...