D&D 5E The -10 Myth: How a Poorly-Worded Gygaxian Rule Became the Modern Death Save

[auburn2]

More importantly, it is, perhaps, the best example I can think of where a rule that was widely misapplied, eventually became the default rule. And the default rule became popular, and continued to be used throughout editions, eventually becoming the modern 5e version (death saves, etc.)

Nice writeup. I don't think this is the "best" example though. The best example is Rangers dual wielding IMO. Rangers in 1E could dual wield the same as any other character (an offhand dagger or hand axe only and applying a penalty to both based on dexterity).

Then along came Drizzt who was a Drow Ranger that dual wielded scimitars. Drizzt was able to dual wield because he was a Drow, not because he was a Ranger. All Drow dual wield as noted in the Fiend Folio. Because of Drizzt though, people started associating this with Rangers and it "became the default rule", changing only now with 5E.

 

[Maxperson]

Nobody I knew misunderstood that rule. We knew it was optional and optioned it in. Dying at 0 sucked and moving it to -10 gave people a chance of survival once they were down. We also optioned out the super severe injury, because losing limbs and the like just sucked to play.

 

[Helldritch]

Nobody I knew misunderstood that rule. We knew it was optional and optioned it in. Dying at 0 sucked and moving it to -10 gave people a chance of survival once they were down. We also optioned out the super severe injury, because losing limbs and the like just sucked to play.

But... But... But.... It was a good way to justify the spell Regeneration!!!!!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Nice writeup. I don't think this is the "best" example though. The best example is Rangers dual wielding IMO. Rangers in 1E could dual wield the same as any other character (an offhand dagger or hand axe only and applying a penalty to both based on dexterity).

Then along came Drizzt who was a Drow Ranger that dual wielded scimitars. Drizzt was able to dual wield because he was a Drow, not because he was a Ranger. All Drow dual wield as noted in the Fiend Folio. Because of Drizzt though, people started associating this with Rangers and it "became the default rule", changing only now with 5E.

Well, I think I'm going to disagree (although I appreciate the compliment!).

First, because this is about a rule being misinterpreted- not about about a popular culture NPC that people wanted to play (this would be similar to saying that Wizards can now use more weapons because of Gandalf).

Second, the timing doesn't work. But that's my memory- I'll verify with some research, post a thread, and then "at" you with the thread so you can comment on whether I'm correct or not.

 

[Umbran]

2. Just looked at your posting history. Your first three posts got you thread-banned for being obnoxious. Your next action was liking a controversial post in a locked thread. After that, you necro‘d the Mentzer thread. Then this.
3. Seems to be a pattern. Not playing.

Mod Note:
@Snarf Zagyg Next time you think someone is up to no good, we recommend that, rather than make it personal in public, you report the issue. In making this personal, you've initiated a clash of egos, and you lack the authority or tools to bring it to closure. So, might as well call in someone who does have those tools earlier, n'est pas?

@Ace of Shadows It remains that Snarf is entirely correct about history. I noted to you before that you should attempt to engage with folks in a positive manner, and establish some goodwill. While you're not bad enough to remove from this discussion yet, do consider whether how you are engaging with folks is going to serve you well in the long run.

From this point forwards, the moderators should expect you two, and everyone else in the thread, to keep their noses clean, and not escalate conflicts.

 

[Maxperson]

But... But... But.... It was a good way to justify the spell Regeneration!!!!!

Hah! If you played the game anywhere close to as written, there were so many poison saves and energy drains that you never got close to being able to case that spell. You did however start hitting negative 3 in the first fight or two. Rolling for hit points at 1st level with little or no con modifiers was harsh, but fun.

 

[Lanefan]

We also optioned out the super severe injury, because losing limbs and the like just sucked to play.

We never did, and even then limb loss has been a rare event - maybe ten occurrences* in almost 40 years of play.

There's not many things that by RAW can cause it: a weapon of sharpness, a Wither spell or device, and rare in-fiction events such as getting your leg chewed off by a dragon or your arm cut off by a trap (I've seen both happen in play). But, as someone already noted, that's what the Regeneration spell is for...

* - two of which happened to Lanefan the character at vastly different times, thus making him the holder of a rather dubious record...

 

[Sithlord]

Want to see 5E playstyle change. Have zero hp mean death and get rid of revivify. If your players are complaining 5E is too easy. Give that a try.

also great topic. We had a brutal DM. Zero hp was death. We tried -10 and the players complained that they were being sloppy because of it.

 

[House_Of_Dexter]

Well, I think I'm going to disagree (although I appreciate the compliment!).

First, because this is about a rule being misinterpreted- not about about a popular culture NPC that people wanted to play (this would be similar to saying that Wizards can now use more weapons because of Gandalf).

Second, the timing doesn't work. But that's my memory- I'll verify with some research, post a thread, and then "at" you with the thread so you can comment on whether I'm correct or not.

I have to agree with you...GH was AD&D and FR was 2nd Edition...and Drizzt was FR and first came out in '88...

 

[Maxperson]

We never did, and even then limb loss has been a rare event - maybe ten occurrences* in almost 40 years of play.

There's not many things that by RAW can cause it: a weapon of sharpness, a Wither spell or device, and rare in-fiction events such as getting your leg chewed off by a dragon or your arm cut off by a trap (I've seen both happen in play). But, as someone already noted, that's what the Regeneration spell is for...

* - two of which happened to Lanefan the character at vastly different times, thus making him the holder of a rather dubious record...

Or just hit -6 hit points.

"If any creature reaches a state of -6 or greater negative paints before being revived, this could indicate scarring or the loss of some member, if you so choose."

I mean, I suppose it might not be a limb, but...