D&D 5E The 2024 Ranger is Actually Pretty Good (with numbers)

[Chaosmancer]

I think you misspoke.

Druids have training in light armor and shields. Warden upgrades to medium armor.

Huh, didn't notice that change.

Ah well, the large point still stands

 

[Chaosmancer]

Maybe so, but I have seen so many encounters where the party has been massacred because they are incompetent at long range that it becomes tiresome to have to dumb down encounters (spells do not have the range of bows). If the ranger isn’t going to cover that, who is? I’m not saying that all rangers must be Dex builds, I’m just refuting the claim that wisdom builds are the only viable build, because wisdom builds are poor at range. Even in a regular encounter, ranged characters probably get in one more attack than melee. This white room assumption that all encounters occur at melee range is garbage.

I haven’t seen many rangers played in 5e, but I one we did have pivoted from melee to archery because they found range was such a huge advantage.

I will agree with you that Wisdom builds are not the only viable build. I didn't catch anyone making that claim, and I find the claim absurd on its face when, AGAIN, until level 11 Dual-wielding Dex Rangers are damage machines.

But to your "who will handle the ranged damage"... whoever built for it? Like, maybe the rogue is using a ranged weapon and is able to use snipe and trip. Maybe they have spellcasters who can toss fireballs up into the sky. I don't seem much point in looking at "what builds are possible" and then going "But this class who may or may not even be in the party MUST handle this specific role or we are all doomed."

 

[Chaosmancer]

And how many of those classes are given extra uses of spells that use Concentration?
War domain has a option to ignore concentration, moon druid gets wis bonus to Conc saves if moon druid CHOOSES to have concentration used while in melee.

Interesting how you ignore Light, Trickery, and Life clerics, or Sea, Star, and Land druids. And don't mention bards at all.

Who gets extra uses of spells that use concentration? Well, it depends on what you you mean by "extra". Because a Ranger at level say 8 has 7 spell slots and let's say 4 uses of Hunter's Mark for a total of 11 spells. All those classes I mentioned are full casters. By level 8 they have 12 spell slots. And the Land druid in particular can recover slots and gets extra uses bringing them up to 17 spells.

Druids are an interesting case too, because at level 8, forty of their seventy-nine potential spells are concentration. Without counting the land spells which has the potential to bring that up to 44 out of 84 or 52% of their spells being concentration.

Ranger really has no choice, either use the ability and hope no one attacks you or ignore certain part of your class budget that is spent on giving you bonus HM.

You have a bizarre conception about what choice is. "I either use this thing and pray, or never use it and cut off my own arm! There is no choice!" Really? No... possible way to make build decisions. No possible way to have team synergies. No possible way to look for tactical uses of your ability? Either use it all the time and rely on luck or shun it with great vigor and manly tears of blood?

It is a concentration check on a free use of an HOUR LONG buff. Yes, you are probably going to lose concentration on it before the hour is over. Same with a cleric who casts spirit Guardians. But we never wring our hands over spirit guardians or Conjure Minor Elementals like we do with this. We treat those spells are basically guaranteed to always work at full capacity, but Hunter's Mark is doomed despite a Ranger being perfectly capable of having a decent con and most checks being DC 10. The VAST majority of checks being DC 10.

that is why I say that Shillelagh is almost a non brainer for a ranger to get via origin.
It uses Wis for attacks and wis is used for almost all Ranger features, and warcaster is then logical 1st choice at 4th level as it guards your HM feature and increases your now MAIN ability.

now, if there is an option to take +1 dex with Warcaster it would help with ranger build.
same with GWM, +1 dex on that so you can use bonus damage on your longbow, sure, it sucks that you will not use Cleave part 99% of the time, but at least your primary ability wont suffer if you pick it.

Then with +1 DEX for warcaster and GWM and +1 for SS, you can get good damage and have decent Conc.
And with 16 wis, you will get decent effect from ranger features and spells.

Yes, those are all options. But you know those are not the ONLY options, right?

I could make my ranger with a 17 dex and 15 wis, grab warcaster at level 4 to get wisdom to 16 and increase ALL my spell DC's, then grab dual-wielder or Defensive Duelist at level 8 and get my dex to 18. And since many, many, many games die by level 10... that isn't a bad choice.

 

[Chaosmancer]

added list is not the same as given usage and can't be equal. It's not like that is the ONLY spell of that level you can cast.

also, why does Favored enemy has 8 instances over 20 levels of Ranger?
Talk about overkill on focusing an entire class on a single (low level) feature.
A spell that is not that great to begin with and no one really likes the spell.

And Hunter's Mark isn't even the only feature Ranger's get at level 1. Heck, you get ALL your level 1 spells at the same time.

And, sorry to tell you this, the spell IS good until tier 3 play and people DO like the spell.

 

[kigmatzomat]

It's not even a bad spell at tier 4, there are just more effective spells available. Which means HM becomes the "just in case" or "when in doubt" action since you have 6.

Somebody sketchy walk into the tavern? Hunter's Mark

Shadowy figure in the forest? Hunter's Mark

 

[Horwath]

do you have anything that's not basically just slightly tweaked hunter's mark in a different hat?

people want something "rangery" to help with tracking and stuff.

this is a very good take on it.

it does not consume daily resources, action economy or your concentration.
and combat effect is minimal.

it gives that feeling that ranger can have a primal connection to it's target. kind of animalisti sense about it.

but yeah, I did write other ideas instead of HM earlier with both Cure wounds or Armor of Agathys as a different take on the Ranger.

it can be even variant of Find familiar similar to pact of the chain but focused more on fey theme.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I will agree with you that Wisdom builds are not the only viable build. I didn't catch anyone making that claim, and I find the claim absurd on its face when, AGAIN, until level 11 Dual-wielding Dex Rangers are damage machines.

The claim was made that post-2024 wisdom build rangers would be the ONLY rangers. That's what I was responding to. It will mean trawling through the thread, but I will try and find it for you later.

But to your "who will handle the ranged damage"... whoever built for it? Like, maybe the rogue is using a ranged weapon and is able to use snipe and trip. Maybe they have spellcasters who can toss fireballs up into the sky. I don't seem much point in looking at "what builds are possible" and then going "But this class who may or may not even be in the party MUST handle this specific role or we are all doomed."

Pretty much all white room DPS calculations fail to take into account that it may not be possible for some or all of the combat to take place within melee range, or even within spell range. And hence we get the "I have Dex 14 and a longbow, so that's range covered" attitude. When really it would make more sense for any DPS character to focus on range.

And this lack of white room stuff means it's hard to say who comes top in the ranged DPS tables (I'm pretty sure it's not rogue though!) I suspect a range built fighter just edges out a ranger, but as pointed out earlier, (Dex) rangers are top of the switch hitter table.

 

[Zardnaar]

The claim was made that post-2024 wisdom build rangers would be the ONLY rangers. That's what I was responding to. It will mean trawling through the thread, but I will try and find it for you later.

Pretty much all white room DPS calculations fail to take into account that it may not be possible for some or all of the combat to take place within melee range, or even within spell range. And hence we get the "I have Dex 14 and a longbow, so that's range covered" attitude. When really it would make more sense for any DPS character to focus on range.

And this lack of white room stuff means it's hard to say who comes top in the ranged DPS tables (I'm pretty sure it's not rogue though!) I suspect a range built fighter just edges out a ranger, but as pointed out earlier, (Dex) rangers are top of the switch hitter table.

I have mentioned the wisdom ranger. It's been a thing since tashas.

I don't think it would win damage awards the idea is to knock stuff prone and control options on BM and FW.

No required but it's what I would do if I went wisdom based.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I have menti9ned the wisdom ranger. It's been a thing since tashas.

Sure, nothing wrong with wisdom rangers per-say, its the idea that they are the only good option that is wrong. I'm aware that it wasn't you claiming that.

 

[Ashrym]

I fundamentally disagree, or at least that Hunter's Mark has to be OP in the hands of any class with concentration buffs.

Divine Favor is almost exactly the same as Hunter's Mark, it just deals 1d4s instead of 1d6s, but it targets yourself, not enemies. Divine Favor can be stacked with concentration buffs, the paladin has them. They specifically removed concentration from Divine Favor and most of the Smite spells because it's not unbalanced.

Hunter's Mark has a longer duration than divine favor, and deals more damage. It could have been changed to lose the ability to switch targets; then Hunter's Mark becomes something you save for enemies with a lot of HP, and it has a niche instead of being the go to. The ranger class could even give you a bennie when you defeat a marked target (similarly, Hex could get the same change, and each patron could give different bennies like they did in 4E).

It's +1 damage over Divine Favor. Just give it a different drawback (like not being able to switch it) and remove concentration.

Divine Favor is different in that it's less damage, 1/60th of the duration, and adds no additional features like advantage on skill checks. Hunter's Mark has concentration because it's significantly better in those other aspects.

You have to hit with divine favor around 4 times before it matches the damage output of one Divine Smite.

That's not hard to do over a minute of duration. I would assume the player would spend that slot on either divine favor or a smite depending on which looks more advantageous at the time.

Huh, didn't notice that change.

Yeah, most full casters start with little to no armor and focus on caster stats instead of DEX. Rangers starting with medium armor and shields, and more reason to build DEX, become protected from losing concentration by making less checks through AC benefits.

They can't lose it at all with Relentless Hunter so they do gain an ability to help with that concentration despite complaints.

It's not even a bad spell at tier 4, there are just more effective spells available. Which means HM becomes the "just in case" or "when in doubt" action since you have 6.

Precise Hunter as a method of gaining advantage on all attacks is useful.