D&D General The Art and the Artist: Discussing Problematic Issues in D&D

[Bill Zebub]

OK, then I'm good that I took that tone and posted that content, since at last you have admitted that all that is needed are minor and easy fixes. Because, before that, your posts were all about "significant harm", so what "significant harm" has been done ? To whom ?

How are "significant harm" and "minor and easy fixes" contradictory?

 

[payn]

I know while planning my honey moon (hopefully covid wont destroy my wedding) my 1st choice is a place that I an my fiancé always wanted to go and have not. but a lot of my more liberal friends keep telling me "locals want less tourism." however every survey taken there says it is 40% dislike tourism and 60% want it or don't care one way or another" and most of the $ in the place is from tourism... so am I hurting people by planning a trip? Am I hurting people if I don't plan a trip? Is this just a modern trolley dilemma? is there a right answer? (FOr the record still not sure what I will be doing come May of next year)

Instead of worrying about majorities vs minorities, you could always find out why some locals dont like tourism, and not do those things.

 

[Lyxen]

I think this is a major point of disagreement within the discussion. To many people, intent is of primary importance, while to many others it is of no concern. It makes these discussions very difficult, because it can seem to the former camp like someone critiquing the outcomes of an artist’s decisions is making assertions about said artist’s intent (and by extension their character), even when that was not what the latter camp was commenting on.

And then, there are some people trying - despite the obvious problem of them being a cis-white 50+ years old, which I understand is sort of a capital offense to some these days - to walk a middle ground, of both trying to be understanding of the past and supporting changes, but being baffled and annoyed by the aggressivity on particular topics, and the way they snowball in negativism and condamnation of the past.

That’s fair. We could definitely do with more discussion of the positive aspects of past and current games.

Simply, thanks for this. I might start a thread on these topics.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Alright, since you seem to be so knowlegeable, please explain in detail what in the module has caused such harm, and why it was significant.

Because I have run this campaign with a friend of color and his daughter, and they both loved it.

What percentage of gamers of color need to feel excluded before we're willing to admit there's a problem?

 

[HammerMan]

Instead of worrying about majorities vs minorities, you could always find out why some locals dont like tourism, and not do those things.

the problem is that in this case it is literally that some % of the locals just don't want outsiders there (even though We are supposed to be a melting pot). so just being there and not having 'business or family' reasons for it sets some off... so it is go/no go as the only choices (since I can't choose for my boss to open a building there or for my family to be there)

 

[payn]

the problem is that in this case it is literally that some % of the locals just don't want outsiders there (even though We are supposed to be a melting pot). so just being there and not having 'business or family' reasons for it sets some off... so it is go/no go as the only choices (since I can't choose for my boss to open a building there or for my family to be there)

"Melting pot" has come to be seen as an assimilation culture theme like the borg. That might be how locals see that comment.

 

[Charlaquin]

I also hope they are more charitable with understanding social progress means things written decades before DO NOT have the luxury of being up to date with the then modern thinking.

I think a certain amount of incredulity at the issues of the past that seem obvious to us today is to be expected. That’s just the nature of hindsight. Consider the same phenomenon in the context of design rather than social critique. Some of the best inventions are ones that, in retrospect, we marvel that no one had thought of them before.

 

[HammerMan]

What percentage of gamers of color need to feel excluded before we're willing to admit there's a problem?

and again... this is the problem.

If 10% of all people who read a book die, I am pretty sure that book should be burned, even though 90% survive it.
If 25% of all people who rea a book get sick and 1/3 of those people who get sick die that means 8% die... is that better or worse or "Oh god burn the necronomicon please"
on the other hand
if 20% want something banned and 20% want it continued and 60% don't care... how do you decide what 20% you go with? What if it is slightly more? What if 25% want something banned and 20% want it to continued and 55% don't care? is 25% enough? How do you survey this? Is there anyway to trust the survey isn't weighted?

 

[HammerMan]

"Melting pot" has come to be seen as an assimilation culture theme like the borg. That might be how locals see that comment.

yeah the borg are the bad version and the federation is the goodish version... so now again, where do you draw the line? are we the borg or are we the federration?

 

[Bedrockgames]

If I'm looking at Van Gogh's Starry Night, I don't need to know anything about his life or personality to say how the work makes me feel and why.

At the same time, if I'm looking at the way Gary Gygax used black skin to denote evil, I can say "this feels racist to me" without having to know his intentions.

But the intention and the person do illuminate the work. I am fine separating artist from art in the sense that, a terrible person might make beautiful art (and I can divide those two things in my mind, even appreciate that perhaps there is a connection between how chaotic this person's soul was and how that enabled them to achieve something compelling artistically). Just think of someone like Beethoven. When you realize the state of his hearing when he wrote his 9th Symphony, that adds a whole other layer to it for me. And I think the same is true for intentions. Ideally the text itself gives us enough information to thoroughly assess and figure out what a person was trying to say without misunderstanding them. But I think when we stop at our own immediate reaction to a work of art, that is very simplistic. It feels like an act of bad faith to just stop there without trying to gauge what the actual purpose of it was. And part of gauging that can be learning more about a person and what they thought. Just contrast how people have discussed Tolkien and Lovecraft. Much of that is about what those men wrote in letters, journals and what we knew about their lives. Knowing that Tolkien was a veteran of WWI for example, makes Lord of the Rings read a bit differently. Knowing what he had to say about Jewish people, that he was concerned about how Orcs were portrayed, reveals something about his intentions in the work. And the same is true of Lovecraft. I love Lovecraft's stories and I think they are much bigger than the man's flaws (you can't escape his influence and there is a reason for that). But his views on race were always pretty clear to me being from New England, and when I see things he wrote in letters and when I read about his life, it very much makes sense (the kind racism Lovecraft had I think is of a much different character than say the kind of racism we associate with the segregated south: it is more about a bloodlines, distrust of any ethnic group outside of Yankees (in New England terms, those who can trace their ancestry to early English settlers)---his attitude towards Italians for example didn't exactly sit well with me (and it is an attitude that used to be around in New England even when I was kid...though it was fading quite a bit by that point). But like a lot of people have also pointed out, Lovecraft was a very unsuccessful person in many respects, a fairly powerless person in his actual life, his views also did change over time (though not to the degree of Howards), and he died of a horribly painful illness quite young, so it can be useful to examine his personal life and intentions and try to put them into the context of their time. I think we get a more accurate and nuanced understanding of these things when we examine the author's more thoroughly. You still might come away feeling the same, but I think it pays to give a work and to give a writer their day in court and a fair hearing.