The Awesomeness that is Hypnotism

[Kzach]

Attacking another monster would be perfectly acceptable

I see no problem with it. It's a magical compulsion in a magical world with... magic in it!

 

[fuzzlewump]

If the defender is a knight he gets no punishment, because a knight's punishment only triggers when an ally is attacked

Oops, our group did that wrong then, as this exact situation came up in our game. Thanks. I guess the Wizard can force the enemy to attack an ally in some certain situations, like if the Knight has a power that lets him switcheroo with the ally, like the protector(?) theme. Actually, can you take an OA and a immediate interrupt in rapid succession? No, it's a once per round thing right? I don't know, actually.

 

[mneme]

I would be unhappy with making a monster attack itself (even though RAW would allow it). Leaving aside the issue about it being very hard to attack yourself with many weapons, my inclination would be to give a saving throw in line with the restriction on moving a monster into hazardous terrain (as per forced movement, dominated etc.).

I don't have a problem with it.

First, powers like Hypnotism are inherently unoptimized. Functionally, you're making two attack rolls that both have to hit to make a single damage roll--not worthwhile unless you're using hijinks. This is hijinks, but I don't know that it actually balances out the base power. Second, this requires significant setup and isn't going to be available every time.

 

[DracoSuave]

I don't have a problem with it.

First, powers like Hypnotism are inherently unoptimized. Functionally, you're making two attack rolls that both have to hit to make a single damage roll--not worthwhile unless you're using hijinks. This is hijinks, but I don't know that it actually balances out the base power. Second, this requires significant setup and isn't going to be available every time.

Do bear in mind that one of those attack rolls can be optimized in normal ways, and the other is inherently optimized by the fact that Hypno itself gives +4 attack bonus, and the enchanter casting it gives it a further +2 bonus.

+6 to attack is not a small number.

 

[GameDoc]

There's the letter of the rules, then the spirit of the rules.

This is creative, entertaining, and fun (at least it would be taken as such in my gaming groups), so I would allow it. Moreover, if it were an Encounters session, I would award the mage a Moment of Greatness if it worked.

I also have a table rule that if a person comes up with a creative use of their power that pushes the bounds of the RAW but makes logical sense, I let them make an applicable skill check as a minor action (moderate or hard DC) to see if they could do it.

Thus far, it's generated the following scenarios:

A levitating drow assassin made an athletics check to drop a a dead enemy into the square behind him instead of the one directly below him. That square was occupied by another enemy who was then knocked prone by the falling body of its dead ally.

A hunter made an acrobatics check to alter his Rapid Shot power to fire four arrows at a large monster - it occupies four squares, after all.

A wizard made an arcana check to use thunderwave to propel the party's boat away from the bank and a mob of lizardfolk wading out to attack, giving everyone time to soften them up with ranged attacks while the lizardfolk swam out to the middle of the river to catch them.
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So far, it doesn't seem to unbalance anything. It gives players a bit of an edge if they are creative, but it also has them roleplaying out their actions. Instead of saying "I use [Power Name]" they are saying "I used [Power Name] to [description of desired effect]."

 

[mneme]

Do bear in mind that one of those attack rolls can be optimized in normal ways, and the other is inherently optimized by the fact that Hypno itself gives +4 attack bonus, and the enchanter casting it gives it a further +2 bonus.

+6 to attack is not a small number.

Sure, but Hypnotism is still a mechanically terrible power without abusing it in some way (this one will do, though obviously the most awesome way to abuse hypnotism is invisibility+stealth+hypnotism to get the monsters fighting among themselves). In the end, you're still making an implement attack that has to hit to...make -another- attack that might actually damage. Even if If you've optimized your way to a 75% hitrate, a monster will only have around a 55% chance of hitting itself (I believe), so you end up with 64% chance to hit when all is said and done (and, in fact, the more you've optimized your hitrate, the more you lose). And that's not counting the fact that monsters are more likely to be resistant to the attacks of their allies than they are to be extra vulnerable to them. The only thing really good about the power (mechanically) is that monster at wills scale better than controller at wills; so this can give a wizard solid single target damage compared to what they can normally do, with the option of taking the slide instead when that's a useful option.

Now, factoring in (and allowing) the ability to have a monster attack themselves [making this kind of stuff less situational, thought I was presuming that for the above math, otherwise hypno is even worse] and trigger defender powers, this becomes potentially very good. But it's still quite situational (even if you let players get away with it every combat, the monster can metagame against it, and it presumes the defender hasn't been dazes or pushed away; if they have been, they're providing a further debuff to hypno on what might be the only monster you can target with it).

 

[DracoSuave]

Sure, but Hypnotism is still a mechanically terrible power without abusing it in some way (this one will do, though obviously the most awesome way to abuse hypnotism is invisibility+stealth+hypnotism to get the monsters fighting among themselves). In the end, you're still making an implement attack that has to hit to...make -another- attack that might actually damage. Even if If you've optimized your way to a 75% hitrate, a monster will only have around a 55% chance of hitting itself (I believe),

Your math is WAY off. Enchanters are using this, for one.

Under current math, monsters generally have level + 5 vs AC, and have Level + 12 - 16. The ironic part here is that the monster you best want to use this on is a Brute, which has the best chance of hitting itself for the most damage. But let's assume it's a skirmisher instead.

Level + 5 to hit Level + 14 = 9 will hit, meaning 60% hit chance. Then you factor in +4 from the power itself making it 80% hit chance, 90% if you've got the enchanter bonus.

The monster misses on a 1 or a 2. If the monster rolls a 3, 3+5+6=14. That hits. Let's do that math again. Level+3+5+6=Level+14 = a hit.

The damage on the attack will be around 1d8+4 damage, which is not too shabby given that this is a modal power that also has the ability to push something 4 6 6 or more squares depending on the build.

And that's not even factoring that this power is DEVASTATING against brutes. More accuracy+More accuracy+More damage? Sign me up!

so you end up with 64% chance to hit when all is said and done (and, in fact, the more you've optimized your hitrate, the more you lose).

Yeah, if you're not using actual numbers

And that's not counting the fact that monsters are more likely to be resistant to the attacks of their allies than they are to be extra vulnerable to them.

Nor does it factor in that monsters are more likely to have conditions that suck attacked to basic attacks like ongoing damage or marked or immobilized or restrained or weakened...

The only thing really good about the power (mechanically) is that monster at wills scale better than controller at wills; so this can give a wizard solid single target damage compared to what they can normally do, with the option of taking the slide instead when that's a useful option.

And let's be honest, that slide is a DAMN useful option.

Now, factoring in (and allowing) the ability to have a monster attack themselves [making this kind of stuff less situational, thought I was presuming that for the above math, otherwise hypno is even worse] and trigger defender powers, this becomes potentially very good. But it's still quite situational (even if you let players get away with it every combat, the monster can metagame against it, and it presumes the defender hasn't been dazes or pushed away; if they have been, they're providing a further debuff to hypno on what might be the only monster you can target with it).

Also, if you're building a group around the idea of using hypnotism to trigger defender tricks and not using the defender to defend or the controller to control, you'll be more effective at this goal of 'damage them' by taking two strikers and calling it a day.

The real point of Hypnotism tho is its threat value. Monsters don't clump together when you've got someone capable of making them beat each other up. And it's useful for placing monsters exactly where you want them. It's got two uses, and at-will positioning is a far better combo with REAL defenders than simply using two characters as half-ass strikers.

Honestly tho, Hypnotism is a back-up utility. The real enchanter at-will power is in beguiling strands. Move 6 on a close blast 3 that can be buffed with superior orbs and all that? Sign me the hell up.

 

[tuxgeo]

< . . . >
Honestly tho, Hypnotism is a back-up utility. The real enchanter at-will power is in beguiling strands. Move 6 on a close blast 3 that can be buffed with superior orbs and all that? Sign me the hell up.

Close blast 5, Sir; not 3.

 

[mneme]

@DracoSuave: No question, Beguiling Strands is awesome. It's Hynotism that is quite situational (even with a 90% chance to hit, that means you're 10% down in accuracy from an attack that only never needs to hit once! No quesiton that the right monster can be devistating, though, as monsters can get at will status effect more easily than PCs, and in many levels do more damage with their at will attacks than controllers not optimized for damage). And yes, if you're using that combo regularly, you'd be better off with two strikers, but then, that's why I don't have a problem with it as a tactic. I could see using it situationally, but then Hypnotism is a situational power in the first place.

 

[Kzach]

I find that even without these shenanigans that Hypnotism is a very useful power. An enchanter is all about controlling the battlefield and a 5-6 square slide is awesome. And the alternative is what for the enchanter? They have Magic Missile which is guaranteed damage but which is more fun, making a brute hit itself and provoke a mark attack for a potential triple the amount of damage you can do with a Magic Missile, or just the flat-out MM damage?

Plus, Hypnotism targets Will which is almost always the lowest NAD, and especially so on Brutes which are the primary target for this power. All in all, as a second choice (after Beguiling Strands), I think it's a solid one for an enchanter, or quite frankly, any other mage build.