The Book of Vile Darkness -- bad idea?

[Valanthe the Sleepless]

Thank you, Aaron, for posting that!

Well, that ends my reading of this thread.

No, I can't leave it at that. Here we are, at a message board for D&D 3E, judging not only a book before it comes out, but the man who wrote it, one of the people who made 3E for us. We are suggesting that he has personality problems because he is writing about evil in fantasy! He is good enough to frequent these boards to get a feel of the communities desires, and when he shows up this time what does he read, but an attack on him. When he defends himself, he is attacked again, this time for defending himself!! I am getting sick of this kind of behavior. My GOD people.

I have just started reading this thread tonight and I am also thoroughly dishearted at the behavior of some of the posters here. And especially the comments made about Monte's personality by the author of this thread. Sheesh!

I know my husband and DM, WizarDru will most likely be picking up the BoVD so he can find new things to torture us with. Heck, we've already run into Fraz erb Luu in our campaign already. It's seems like it'll be interesting and a big helpful resourse for DMs. And we also really enjoy Monte's stuff.

So a big Huzzah! to Monte and hopefully there will be more civil, productive discussions instead of the flaming rudess we've seen in this thread.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

It keep me warm inside to see such obvious examples of ignorance from some of my fellow Americans. Keep it up, every time I read a post like yours I happily know there are still people around who are only suited for menial labor.

*ConcreteBuddha will not reply to this post because to do so would violate the gentle warning that Darkness posted. On that note, ConcreteBuddha thinks to himself that he will no longer defend the United States as a people, nor use sarcasm in any way on these boards, nor bring up politics in a discussion about evil where free speech, prejudice, ignorance, morality and society are inherently intertwined. ConcreteBuddha now happily digs a ditch.*

 

[Leopold]

Because it's illegal. People who work in illegal professions can't form unions, can't go to court over contract disputes, can't complain to the cops without incriminating themselves, etc, etc, etc.

Notice how gangs selling crack shoot each other over turf? Notice how corporations selling alcohol just buy ad spots on the Super Bowl? Same principle.

it is only illegal here in the US and only in certain states. Certain countries have legalized prostitution (netherlands) as well as las vegas, nevada. Do they still have issues? Yes. But not on the rampant scale that let's say New York does. Being a legitimate busness has all the above things you say they don't have they have.

As for the drugs, do the same thing with them, legalize them, and some of the problems would disappear. Would others appear? yes but that's new problems with new answers.

Now, how does that affect D&D? How does a prostitution ring work in gaming terms? What kind of kickbacks do they get? What types of services? What would a madam have classes in? Would there be bouncers? If so what kind? What level? Would there be criminal organization behind it? If so, how many? How much revune? What type of organizations?

The information is important here as that's all that matters. Whether you think prostitution or drugs is illegal is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that now we are going to have 'crunchy bits' that we can use instead of coming up with it on our own.

I for one want to see what the pros and cons are for human sacrifices, cults, and so forth.

 

[Tratyn Runewind]

Hello!

Posted by Hand of Vecna:
Does anyone else but me see this as a BAD thing?

Actually, to me it seems a pretty shrewd thing to take a pile of the more controversial items that some have been clamoring for (demon-lords, etc.), add perhaps a few all-new controversial items appropriate to the fantasy genre (sacrifices, magical drugs, etc.), stuff it all into a single book, and then clearly label it as purely optional and for mature players only.

With that said, I'll also say that it would obviously be very easy to write such a project badly, going all White Wolf and wallowing in gratuitous depravity and moral relativism. Nothing would turn me off to this project more than the perception that it was a blatant pandering to the questionable tastes of the White Wolf (and especially Vampire) crowd. However, I haven't really seen anything to indicate that this is the case, and given the quality of Mr. Cook's previous work, I'm more than willing to extend him the benefit of the doubt until I can actually see the book.

Posted by Joshua Dyal:
There are no rules for prostitution. That's an error. The author: one Monte Cook who occasionally frequents these boards, has already said that is a fallacious marketing blurb written by some catalog troll (well, I'm paraphrasing.)

Seems sensible to me. Given that it is typically a criminal (or at least shady) profit-making enterprise, it would appear to belong more in a Rogue-focused supplement than in something that seems to concentrate on extraplanar evil and the dark magics associated with it.

Interestingly, many of the themes mentioned in connection with the Book of Vile Darkness were at least touched upon in Basic D&D, which was not exactly aimed at the most mature gaming audiences. Prostitution showed up in Glantri (the "Sisters of the Private Houses" were an offshoot of the local Thieves' Guild), Dawn of the Emperors included detailed DM advice on handling slavery and colonial subjugation, and an addictive drug that was used against Alphatia's magical elite (the zzonga-fruit), and BD&D had demon-lords (or Immortals of Entropy, as they called them), including Demogorgon and Orcus, for longer than AD&D did. These things didn't seem to cause a lot of controversy back then, though they were handled with careful discretion. Demons were usually called "fiends", for instance, which somehow managed to avoid the controversy surrounding the words "demon" and "devil", while sounding better (to me, at least) than wholly made-up words like "baatezu" and "tanarii". Mr. Cook is an experienced professional, and I would guess that he could handle deeper explorations of such topics with a similar care, if such were his choice.

 

[William Ronald]

I think that the book is a good idea. Some of the topics are controversial, and may not fit into everyone's campaign setting. My own campaign setting has its own mature topics, so I have an interest in how Monte Cook will handle some of the same themes.

However, I am somewhat dismayed at people prejudging a product and an author. I am also a bit dismayed about the whole political angle. I have played in campaigns with people of very different backgrounds, including different political views. You can disagree with someone without being disagreeable. Besides, in learning the views of others you can perhaps better understand your own by contrast. The other person may have a few valid points. I have also known people to go through changes in their views over the years.

I suspect that all the power that the evil cultists might gain will have a step price, probably beginning with their immortal souls. Also, I hope there is some discussion of the philosophies behind different types of evil, and a few discussion of prominent evil groups. The Scarlet Brotherhood and the Red Wizards of Thay, for example. (Sean K. Reynolds had an excellent supplement in 2nd Edition, the Scarlet Brotherhood, that was appropriately creepy.)

 

[Lady Dragon]

I fail to understand why everyone is making such a big deal about the prostitution issue especially in a book that is going to cover far more destructive subjects.

I'm willing to bet if it is covered at all it will be tasteful and take at most a page or two of a 192 page book.And I seriously doubt that this book will actually cover any sexual material.

Finally Prostitution has always been a part of organized crime dating back to theives guilds of ancient London so I don't see why mentioning it in a game context would be reprehensible.

Have any of you read the Sword of Truth Novels (yes I know they aren't D&D) but they cover a number of sexually explicit topics in the form of villionous behavior.And although I wouldn'twant a child to read these novels I think the adult themes are appropriate in these books and I would like to see D&D treated the same way.

Some of the topics covered in the sword of Truth novels are child molestation,Serial murder of prostitutes,and Rape among others yet these acts only serve to make the villian all the more evil in the eyes of the reader.

 

[William Ronald]

Lady Dragon, I agree that prostitution is a minor issue for the book in light of its content matter.

I have read the Sword of Truth series, and I suspect the Book of Vile Darkness will handle some of the more difficult ways in an equally appropriate manner.

Indeed, I would have to say that a common thread here is that evil can perhaps be defined as the denying of another's rights as an individual. How often are evil cultists portrayed as thinking of their victims as cattle or sub human? How often do evil people or governments portray their victims as less than human and worthy of punishment?

 

[Hand of Vecna]

Umbran said

You know, irony can be pretty ironic

Did anyone else notice this...

The discussion on whether this book will make the game look satanic was started by a user who's nickname is that of the dismembered hand of an archlich-god.

No offense, HoV, but I find that incredibly funny

Heh heh, well said, good point

Anyway, I see where you're all coming from, and you all have valid points (well, most of you ). However, I am not that concerned about what The Populace thinks about D&D (save in cases where such outcries can activate legal actions/sanctions). What I am concerned about is that the BoVD will more likely make D&D look more Evil, and less Geeky...

I'M A GEEK, NOT A SATANIST!!!



My GM (a Communications major) once told me that "there's no such thing as bad press/publicity." To an extent, I agree with this. So maybe we should be looking at how much publicity WotC/Hasbro wants to get out of the BoVD....

*begins formulating conpiracy theories*

Oh, and on a related note...GURPS Black Magic (still in the "wish list" phase)

 

[Taren Nighteyes]

Just wanted to add 2 cents:

Some people are worried about the moral implications. Others are worried about the damage it may do to the company/hobby. And others really don't give a damn one way or the other.

Well...where to begin...

1) It's a game - I've never done drugs, owned a slave, "rented" a prostitute, or had lunch with Orcus, killed a dragon, farmer, idiot guardsman, etc etc etc. - BUT my characters have! (Lunch with Orcus = I AM LUNCH)

2) Vote with your Dollars - Will the BoVD sell well? Will demand be sufficient to make this a profitable venture? The CONSUMER decides. You don't like it or want it...then don't buy it.

3) Mature Material - Worried that 10 year olds are going to buy a book on sin and be psychologically damaged by it??? Well....we haven't seen the book, and if the book were "hardcore", I could understand your concerns. Those who are worried should write some letters to WOTC explaining those concerns and hope they take age into consideration when editing the book (if necessary), shrink wrapping, or warning labels etc. Honestly, freedom of speech (freedom to game ) allows material MUCH more "mature" into the marketplace than BoVD will ever be.

4) It's all opinions - Remember, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Debate is good, but stick to the issue. Personal attacks are neither useful or allowed. I love a good debate, but I name calling/sarcasm etc make for little understanding and more negative emotion.

5) Monte - You do kick some serious ass.

6) My Opinion - I look forward to the book. (I really wish the going rates for a "lady of the night" based on some stats were in the book, and definitely the going rate for a slave, also based on some stats) I have no doubt many people's fears are unwarranted, but this is ground that has long been contraversial in D & D.

Thanks for reading my hot air. *plink plink*

Taren Nighteyes

 

[Methinkus]

The anti-D&D bashers are a tiny minority (albiet a very vocal one) and don't need any one book to fuel their lies and censorship - hell I've seen them still using the 1st edition DMG and MM as 'proof' of the satanic overtones of D&D. You cannot allow this minority to control what can or cannot be published because you are afraid of what extremists will say. That would be a worse crime

I have read this statement (obviously) and come to realize that you are entirely correct. Why should I let Soccer Mom’s opinion bother me? Any opinion she could form about my hobby by looking at one book wouldn’t be worth listening to anyway.

Well, I can say that, but I can also say "not a true statement in the least" as well. I can even say "offensive and borderline slanderous" too.

Okey Dokey, looks like I was misinformed . . . . . badly. I realize I can’t believe everything I read online, but this “quote” came from a respectable looking website – which after some searching I can no longer locate – so I believed it. Some times you just have to take something on faith – like the fact that you’re really Monte Cook

If it helps at all, i actually visit Monte Cook.com once in a while and I always tried to include a nice side of Orc and Pie in most of my adventures

The statement I made in my first post on this thread was motivated by another statement which as I have just explained I was wrongly led to believe had been made by you, a statement which I am sad to say did have a negative affect on my opinion of you *cough mybadIfeellikesuchajerk cough*

I’m proud to announce that I have reconsidered my position and am now looking foreward to the BoVD