The C&C poll

[Piratecat]

AGAIN, I never made that representation. You're just spoiling for a flamewar by putting your own words in the mouths of others.

This is me, sliding the thread back on topic. I'm sliding, I'm sliding...

Seriously, gang, I know you're working very hard to keep the discussion interesting and non-hostile. It's appreciated.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That just shows me you don't understand how its so easy to do with C&C in comparison to any other rules system I know of.

No, I'm fully aware of the system. Theres no feats, skills, different saves, etc. Monsters dont have stats, etc. C&C is NOT compatable with 3.5, anymore than Unknown Armies is compatable with Call of Cthulhu because they both involve % dice. I just dont feel the need to lie to people about the game to sucker them in.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I am surprised to see fully 16% of the D&D audience either converted to, or converting to, C&D.

 

[Maggan]

I am surprised to see fully 16% of the D&D audience either converted to, or converting to, C&D.

I am surprised that online polls are still seen as representative of reality, myself.

/M

 

[Dristram]

No, I'm fully aware of the system. Theres no feats, skills, different saves, etc. Monsters dont have stats, etc. C&C is NOT compatable with 3.5, anymore than Unknown Armies is compatable with Call of Cthulhu because they both involve % dice. I just dont feel the need to lie to people about the game to sucker them in.

No lying. Players of C&C convert 3.5 rules into their game as they want very easily. The base mechanics of C&C are like a mix of 3.5 and OD&D. If you want Feats, you can easily add them, or just make them SIEGE checks. If you want 3.5 Skills, they're added seamlessly. But, I'll admit that most players of 3.5 who move over to C&C are trying to get away from those things, but they can and have been added to C&C very easily. Likewise, AoOs, 5-foot step, movement actions, etc. all are added to C&C without hassle.

Now, converting classes and monsters of 3.5 definitely take much more work to convert.

 

[Imaro]

Well, I meant "true conversion" in the sense of changing rules from one system to work in another. You know. . . uhm. . . converting them. What some folks see as "conversion from", I see more as "proprietary system modification" for the following reasons:

Then I contest that you're statement is false. Rules do have to be converted by your definition.

1. If you're simply ignoring the rules of System X in favor of the rules that already exist in C&C or BFRPG, you're not actually converting much of anything. You're just nabbing some fluff and grafting it onto another, already existant, system.

You're right here, as you really aren't converting anything...this is similar to using a rules system to play in your favorite world.

2. If you're porting in rules from System X to C&C or BFRPG without altering them, again, you're not doing much actual conversion. You're simply adding new rules to an already existant framework (i.e., you're modifying the existing system, rather than converting something to it).

Is this possible? Let's take "feats" as an example...There are alot that give you a +2 to two skills. C&C doesn't have skills, but if you are using all feats then conversion is necessary, right? You could give the player a +2 anytime an action taken would fall within the realm of those skills...you could let him add his level or even 1/2 his level to rolls that fall under the purview of the specific skills. These are conversions, not taking a rule from either game. The same with AoO if you wanted to add them in, skills, etc.

I think the sum total of actual conversion that occurs when porting things to C&C (or BFRPG) tends to come in the form of recalculating AC from older editions of D&D/AD&D. Most of the current crop of d20 products don't require any conversion to be used with either system, so much as both systems require external modification (i.e., both C&C and BFRPG require you to bolt on options from full-blown d20 in order to use said options).

This is wrong, as I illustrated above. It all depends on how much and what you are trying to convert. You're making blanket statements without considering just how many fiddly bits there are in AD&D and D&D3.5.

So, in that light, systems like C&C or BFRPG are extremely easy to modify (i.e., house rule) but the actual conversion of mechanics from other systems isn't explicitly (or implicitly) supported by either game. It's more about adding options wholesale to the systems in question, rather than mechanically altering options from other games to make them work in either system.

See above...It all depends on what you want to convert.

Granted, this is a rather minor distinction, though an important one where certain play preferences are concerned.

Yeah it is, but you brought it up...and I've shown that while conversion is easy, it is also necessary for alot of the mechanics in the game. It just seems that you've chosen to ignore this instances because they don't support your argument.

 

[Imaro]

Note: All emphasis are mine.

No, I'm fully aware of the system. Theres no feats, skills, different saves, etc. Monsters dont have stats, etc. C&C is NOT compatable with 3.5, anymore than Unknown Armies is compatable with Call of Cthulhu because they both involve % dice. I just dont feel the need to lie to people about the game to sucker them in.

Wow that's a pretty big statement to back up, especially when what he said was...

That just shows me you don't understand how its so easy to do with C&C in comparison to any other rules system I know of.

You seem to be equating the word compatible as a binary yes/no thing, which means for anything to be "compatible" by your strict definition of the word...it has to be the exact same game. I think it has been stated numerous times that some modification is necessary to use AD&D, D&D, BD&D, etc. So I don't think anyone is lying(or at least not purposefully misleading people). So perhaps a better statement, where your concerned would be...C&C has a very easy level of intergration and adaptibility as far as the various versions of D&D, BD&D, d20 and AD&D. But who really wants to type all of that, when it's easier to say "compatible", especially when...

Personally I think that this is a nitpicky argument, since common parlance amongst gamers for "compatibility" is exactly what I described above, otherwise nothing...not even d20 and D&D 3.5 are really "compatible", and this IMHO is just going to a level of absurdity that serves no practical purpose when discussing rpg's.

The point is some games are more compatible with others, in the sense that less work is necessary to use things between the systems. By the way I would say CoC and Unknown armies are more compatible than say...CoC and the nWoD. And yes one of the major reasons is that UA and CoC share a similar base system. How does this in any way invalidate the statements made about C&C? I wouldn't say D&D 3.5 takes less work to adapt to CoC than UA does.

 

[SavageRobby]

Why do you guys continue to feed the troll? You can't out-argue willful ignorance, so don't try.


If someone doesn't want to believe that C&C is highly compatible with various editions of D&D, let them continue to be ignorant. Its been explained well enough in this thread and others. Practical experience by those that have actually done it (who are easily a minority of the people actually aruging pro/con here, something to note) has shown how quickly you can convert all editions to C&C terms. If someone wants to make outrageous and unfounded statements to the contrary, don't legitimize them by arguing with them. Yeesh.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Why do you guys continue to feed the troll? You can't out-argue willful ignorance, so don't try.


If someone doesn't want to believe that C&C is highly compatible with various editions of D&D, let them continue to be ignorant. Its been explained well enough in this thread and others.

Conversion is not the same as compatibility. I can convert Over the Edge to Call of Cthulhu or AD&D. It doesnt make them compatable. C&C shares VERY few mechanics that are the same with 3.5 D&D. About as much as Rolemaster and Unknown Armies. You roll a D20 for some stuff and have some HP and stats.

I like how anyone who presents the facts is "ignorant". I think its been demonstrated that its not the same system, and does not use the same mechanics as 3.5 D&D, no matter how badly you want to spin it.

You guys really do sound like a cult. "Our beliefs are 100% compatible with your existing religion! All you have to do is change everything you believe!". Not to meniton the cries of persecution the minute someone calls you on it.

Present the game for what it is, and I'll stop calling you on your BS.

 

[Piratecat]

Ehren, out of the thread. If you can't obey moderator instructions not to bicker, you shouldn't be here.

Everyone else -- if someone isn't obeying the rules here, report them. Do NOT argue with them and continue the argument. Doing so just worsens the problem, and causes you to break rules yourself.

If that is somehow unclear, please feel free to email me.