The D&D 4th edition Rennaissaince: A look into the history of the edition, its flaws and its merits

[Hussar]

Just a point about speeding up combat is something in the DMG that often got ignored. The main enemy in encounters were meant to be skirmishers.

The problem was a lot of modules bloated the number of soldier monsters. High AC plus wayyyy too high hp meant combat could take forever. But if your standard encounter was three skirmishers, an ambushed and maybe one soldier, combat ran so much faster. Heck swap the soldier for four minions and you were really good to go.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I think the point here was “what system could we use that is somewhere between a full combat with minis and attack rolls, vs. just hand-wave it a bunch”?

And the answer is: play GUMSHOE and pretend it’s an action game!
No, sorry, that was mean of me. I tease out of love.

The answer for 4e is, various house rules people have proposed.

 

[Kannik]

Just a point about speeding up combat is something in the DMG that often got ignored. The main enemy in encounters were meant to be skirmishers.

The problem was a lot of modules bloated the number of soldier monsters. High AC plus wayyyy too high hp meant combat could take forever. But if your standard encounter was three skirmishers, an ambushed and maybe one soldier, combat ran so much faster. Heck swap the soldier for four minions and you were really good to go.

IIRC, 1-2 soldiers was the recommended maximum to include. At face value Brutes often look to be tougher/meaner, but their lower defenses means they go down quicker (and more satisfyingly).

 

[Hussar]

IIRC, 1-2 soldiers was the recommended maximum to include. At face value Brutes often look to be tougher/meaner, but their lower defenses means they go down quicker (and more satisfyingly).

IIRC, you are right. It's been a hot minute, but, that sounds about right. The baseline encounter group was 3 skirmishers, an ambusher and a brute. Switch out one for one, for something else, but, you should not be using things like 5 soldiers. I remember one of the really early 4e modules had like its first encounter as 3 or 4 hobgoblin soldiers (hey it's been like 12 years, I might misremember the details). I DO remember that the encounter took like 2 hours or more to resolve. It was freaking INSANE. Very low levels, like 3rd level maybe. Something like that.

So, yeah. When people get on about the grind in 4e, they're not wrong. It easily could be a massive grind.

 

[Joshua Randall]

And the really bad early 4e adventures were written by…? The same person who eventually took over and drove the stake into 4e’s heart with all the glee of Abraham Van Helsing.

OK, in fairness, H1 and H3 each have Mearls’ name and one of the three designers’ names on them (Cordell and Wyatt respectively). H2 was co-authored by Rich Baker.

 

[Mannahnin]

IIRC, you are right. It's been a hot minute, but, that sounds about right. The baseline encounter group was 3 skirmishers, an ambusher and a brute. Switch out one for one, for something else, but, you should not be using things like 5 soldiers. I remember one of the really early 4e modules had like its first encounter as 3 or 4 hobgoblin soldiers (hey it's been like 12 years, I might misremember the details). I DO remember that the encounter took like 2 hours or more to resolve. It was freaking INSANE. Very low levels, like 3rd level maybe. Something like that.

So, yeah. When people get on about the grind in 4e, they're not wrong. It easily could be a massive grind.

I think I know the fight you're talking about. It's not the first fight, but it may be one of the first fights AFTER the PCs hit level 2 in Keep on the Shadowfell. The first room on level 2 of the dungeon is a Hobgoblin guard room with 4 Hobgoblin Soldiers (L3 Soldiers), 5 Hobgoblin Grunts (L3 Minions) and a Deathjump Spider (L4 Skirmisher).

There is an open pit well in the room you can try to push/slide enemies into, but I remember it being a grindy-ass fight.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I think I know the fight you're talking about. It's not the first fight, but it may be one of the first fights AFTER the PCs hit level 2 in Keep on the Shadowfell. The first room on level 2 of the dungeon is a Hobgoblin guard room with 4 Hobgoblin Soldiers (L3 Soldiers), 5 Hobgoblin Grunts (L3 Minions) and a Deathjump Spider (L4 Skirmisher).

There is an open pit well in the room you can try to push/slide enemies into, but I remember it being a grindy-ass fight.

The whole Keep was horrible 4e design with perhaps the exception of the final fight room. Area after area of full on encounters just doesn't work well with 4e for pacing reasons unless you deliberately use lots of minions and/or "group" the rooms expecting intelligent opponents to converge into a bigger encounter that "clears" many rooms.

That would have been pretty cool to show how to replicate the feel of an earlier edition "stronghold" in 4e using those principles.

Or they could have played to 4e's strengths directly with fewer, larger set piece battles in between exploration/roleplaying/investigation.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

So, yeah. When people get on about the grind in 4e, they're not wrong. It easily could be a massive grind.

I like 4e, but for me it was not only the grind within an encounter but the fact that most published modules just stacked the encounters up back to back to back to back. If the 1st encounter wasn't a grind by the 4th that still hasn't advanced the plot any, I've lost all interest.

I like the tactical longer 4e combat but for me you preferably have to put some plot advancement in between.

 

[Joshua Randall]

On a related note, and to make good on a promise I made earlier in the thread, I present the following. Which will eventually showcase some truly spectacular 4e set-piece encounters (assuming I don't get my stupid self banned before then).

D&D General Thread 'Learning from LFR: Encounter and Monster Examples to Steal for Your Game'

Feb 6, 2025

Learning from LFR: Encounter and Monster Examples to Steal for Your Game​

There is much to learn from the Living Forgotten Realms (LFR) Organized Play adventures which were published over the lifespan of 4e D&D (2008-2014).

My goal is to crack open some LFR adventures and to scrutinize encounters and individual monsters to see what made those adventures work. We can use this knowledge to inform our current encounter and monster design.

My anti-goal is to review the LFR adventures. Reviews at this late date would be pointless, and I'm honestly not interested in whether the...

• Joshua Randall
• Replies: 4
• Forum: *Dungeons & Dragons

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[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Martial: Martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense, although some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals. Martial characters use their own strength and willpower to vanquish their enemies. Training and dedication replace arcane formulas and prayers to grant fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords, among others, their power. Martial powers are called exploits.

So while it doesn't quite mention anime territory, the 4e PHB is quite clear that martial heroes can perform deeds just as unrealistic as a wizard evoking fire from nothing.

Although what's interesting to me is that I recently went back and looked at the 4e Fighter exploits levels 1-30 and they really aren't crazy over the top. Sure, it's not mundane or "realistic" maybe, and there are a few (but not many) narrative/player authorial powers, but a lot of the upscaling of the martial power came from limiting magic classes, not actually giving Fighters crazy (in world) options. The options are certainly more interesting and tactical for the player, but not really that wazoo.