D&D General The D&D Multiverse: Too Weird to Live, Too Rare to Die

[Scribe]

Something that is almost totally resistant to alternate takes does not seem like a great fit for the baseline cosmology for an open game.

Nobody can stop you at your own table. Its the same with anything with D&D.

Well, that would certainly be an improvement, albeit a thin one.

I feel like this was the case when describing the outer planes. They are not physical places, but interpretations of the ideal of the Alignment? I may be hallucinating this, I'll have to check when I have access to the book again.

 

[dave2008]

Nobody can stop you at your own table. Its the same with anything with D&D.



I feel like this was the case when describing the outer planes. They are not physical places, but interpretations of the ideal of the Alignment? I may be hallucinating this, I'll have to check when I have access to the book again.

@EzekielRaiden and @Scribe , here is some of what the 2024 DMG says that may be relevant:

"Since the primary way of traveling from plane to plane is through magical portals, the spatial relationship between different planes is largely theoretical. No being in the multiverse can look down and see the planes arranged like a diagram in a book. No mortal can verify whether Mount Celestia is sandwiched between Bytopia and Arcadia; rather, this theoretical positioning is based on the philosophical shading among the three planes and the relative importance they give to law and good."

and

"When discussing anything to do with deities and their realms, the language used must be highly metaphorical. Their actual homes aren’t literally places at all but exemplify the idea that the Outer Planes are realms of thought and spirit."

 

[Scribe]

@EzekielRaiden and @Scribe , here is some of what the 2024 DMG says that may be relevant:

"Since the primary way of traveling from plane to plane is through magical portals, the spatial relationship between different planes is largely theoretical. No being in the multiverse can look down and see the planes arranged like a diagram in a book. No mortal can verify whether Mount Celestia is sandwiched between Bytopia and Arcadia; rather, this theoretical positioning is based on the philosophical shading among the three planes and the relative importance they give to law and good."

and

"When discussing anything to do with deities and their realms, the language used must be highly metaphorical. Their actual homes aren’t literally places at all but exemplify the idea that the Outer Planes are realms of thought and spirit."

This ol' brain still functions.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

To get this slightly closer to the emphasis on the Material Plane in the OP, I've just discovered that Eberron: Rising from the Last War states that the world of Eberron is the "heart of its own Material Plane" in addition to its own cosmology apparently existing somewhere in the Ethereal Plane.

I wonder how the MtG settings fit in here. Are they all hidden away in the Ethereal as well? And what about Mystara?

 

[Staffan]

It is weird that the 3e MotP says that things like the Far Realms have no place in the Oerth centered Great Wheel when simultaneously things like the 3e Tome & Blood have alienists in the default Greyhawk world summoning things specifically from the Far Realms.

The Far Realm doesn't have a place in Oerth. The Far Realm doesn't care. That's the problem.

 

[Mannahnin]

As I have stated many times, a setting that can plausibly exist outside of anyone's particular use for it in a logically consistent way is my first worldbuilding goal. The 1e MotP did that.

And that's a perfectly respectable goal. But if it's achieved at the expense of playability, it's putting the cart before the horse, IMO. This is a game. It needs to be fun to play.

Given that all these cosmological details are made-up in the first place, the bar should be set at BOTH verisimilitudinous consistency AND fun playability, with clear hooks and adventure opportunities presented to the DM (especially for newer DMs).

The 1E MotP falls down badly on the latter count, which is, I understand, not your priority, but is very important for a game supplement.

if you model it on our universe, sure, but then you have the same problems ‘we’ have with no one ever visiting a different plane(t) because it is too hard and deadly. You will have to make some concessions to make it worthwhile

Exactly. Although I'm not sure concessions is the right word. What are we conceding to? There are no negative energy plane or elemental plane of fire for us to be making realistic concessions to the deadliness and inhospitibility of. Deciding that these places are incredibly hostile to human life and that they require all sorts of magical protections, and that the outer planes in general make all your magic weapons worse and weaker, are basically arbitrary design choices.

I don't think you do, at least not in the way you mean. Planescape managed just fine IMO by including points of interest in every plane without changing how the plane itself worked, thus requiring magical protection if the party wants to go "off-road".

So the way to do it is to make the planes themselves inimical to life, but to make little islands within them which have magical wards which make them function basically the same as the Prime Material? I'm not sure what the point of that even is, then. That's like having an "undersea" adventure where all the action happens in a domed city full of air where everything functions exactly the same way as it does on dry land.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

So the way to do it is to make the planes themselves inimical to life, but to make little islands within them which have magical wards which make them function basically the same as the Prime Material? I'm not sure what the point of that even is, then. That's like having an "undersea" adventure where all the action happens in a domed city full of air where everything functions exactly the same way as it does on dry land.

Yes! Exactly this. It would be like having a game set in "Atlantis under the sea," except doing anything outside of the domed cities, neo-Atlantean colonies on surface islands, or below-seafloor caverns is either (a) impossible or (b) nearly pointless.

Like...sure, you can do it, but at that point is it actually an undersea adventure? Or is it just an island adventure with an unusual skyline?

Infinite hostile-and-empty planes peppered with a handful of places with any reason at all to visit them is basically just making up a reason for why your theme park is the only place in the universe that's worth visiting. How is that any different from just...only talking about the places that are worth visiting in the first place, and gearing things so that there's a plausible reason to go to most places?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

To get this slightly closer to the emphasis on the Material Plane in the OP, I've just discovered that Eberron: Rising from the Last War states that the world of Eberron is the "heart of its own Material Plane" in addition to its own cosmology apparently existing somewhere in the Ethereal Plane.

I wonder how the MtG settings fit in here. Are they all hidden away in the Ethereal as well? And what about Mystara?

I may be misunderstanding your question, but here's my answer-

1. In the Gygaxian Multiverse, all possible Eberrons are in the prime material plane. To the extent you want to "shut down" access from Eberron to other prime material planes (whether they are full planes, pocket planes, proto-planes, or, um, plane as the nose on your face....) you would just say that the borders are not porous, but nigh impenetrable. In other words, you'd have to ignore what is written as facially true, and instead view it as ... unreliable narration that gives you the gist that Eberron (and versions of it) are in the class of planes that are really hard to breach.

In other words- all versions of all words, from Greyhawk to Star Frontiers to Eberron to MtG to Mystara settings exists, but different worlds have different levels of "porousness" that allows people to go between them.

2. Or you just play it as written. Eberron is sui generis. Your campaign, and the Eberron cosmology around your campaign, is all that exists. There are no other settings or alternate worlds when you're playing an Eberron campaign.

 

[TwoSix]

I may be misunderstanding your question, but here's my answer-

1. In the Gygaxian Multiverse, all possible Eberrons are in the prime material plane. To the extent you want to "shut down" access from Eberron to other prime material planes (whether they are full planes, pocket planes, proto-planes, or, um, plane as the nose on your face....) you would just say that the borders are not porous, but nigh impenetrable. In other words, you'd have to ignore what is written as facially true, and instead view it as ... unreliable narration that gives you the gist that Eberron (and versions of it) are in the class of planes that are really hard to breach.

In other words- all versions of all words, from Greyhawk to Star Frontiers to Eberron to MtG to Mystara settings exists, but different worlds have different levels of "porousness" that allows people to go between them.

2. Or you just play it as written. Eberron is sui generis. Your campaign, and the Eberron cosmology around your campaign, is all that exists. There are no other settings or alternate worlds when you're playing an Eberron campaign.

There are many Material Planes. There is only one Material Planes. Look at the bagel, and know that both of these things are always true.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

There are many Material Planes. There is only one Material Planes. Look at the bagel, and know that both of these things are always true.

Is it an Everything Bagel, or a Plane Bagel?