I am with you on linking bug stuff to in-game traits as opposed to table luck. The more things move into the realm of choices made by character (during play) or by player (in dedign) and not flukes at the table, the more generally I tend to like it.
D&D 5E The "everyone at full fighting ability at 1 hp" conundrum
- Thread starter Sacrosanct
- Start date
snickersnax
Explorer
If you make serious effects too common then its a problem because adventurers won't be able to survive for a whole campaign. I felt like my suggestion for a slight improvement to critical hits was just right. It does scale with skill ( critical hits are more common due to multi-attack and advantage). The biggest impact from the rule is that all hits to a character with 0 hit points are critical hits, so I don't think these changes turn the game into a must crit fish and hope for luck scenario at all.
Your point about massive damage is a good one, but there are some great optional rules for massive damage (5e DMG p273) which solve this, independently from the changes I was brainstorming.
This thread isn't really about design space for the characters to have cool or trick abilities. Its more about having a better way to describe hit point reduction for the purposes of story telling. In the past I've been firmly in the camp of hit points should be best described as meat, but after reading this thread I'm contemplating conversion.
As others in this thread have suggested, successful hits would generally be a minor touch, or a very slight wound, until 0 hit points and then 0 to death is where the meat points are.
The OP was originally looking for a way to have fighting power reduced as hit points were lost. While you could give penalties at certain percentages of hitpoints lost. The book keeping for that is cumbersome. Tacking a point of exhaustion onto critical hits is easy to book keep and isn't so severe that it will impose the swinginess you are worried about.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
This would end up with starting PC hit point amounts very much resembling those in 4e, except (and this is a good thing) non-adventuring commoners would also benefit.
The knock-on effect here would be to make the typical 1st-level threats (Goblins, Kobolds, other small 1-HD pests) much less of a threat overall to 1st-level characters - is this what you want? If yes, why?
Conversely, if those types of critters get their h.p. boosted in proportion so as to keep them viable as low-level threats, all you've done in the end is make low-level combats a) longer* and b) more predictable*. Is this what you're after?
* - neither of which add to the fun.
snickersnax
Explorer
Goblins and Kobolds already have 2 HD. 1st level NPCs already have 2 hit dice (acolytes, cultists, bandits...)
1 HD for 1st level characters is not consistent with the rest of the fantasy world and also not consistent with reality (as I mentioned previously) and often not fun because damage compared to hit points at level one is just rocket tag.
We will just have to agree to disagree on these conclusions of yours. I have seen frewuencybof bouncey 20s to be very swingy and unpredictable.
As for multi-attack and advantsge, folks already get those if they can, nothing changes there except that now EB gets another boost up on firebolt and the cantrips that use saves instead of attacks become also rans. Same for many other options.
As for exhaustion not being so severe... we disagree.
Tony Vargas
Legend
I tried to tell 'em: "First is the new Third!"
No one would listen.
3catcircus
Adventurer
So, amongst the posts about QTY of hit dice and taking injury out of the realm of attack roll chance, I thought I'd expound on my favorite hit points/wounds/injury system, which makes hit points actual meat points.
First - you have to concede that every creature is going to have hit points in a relatively narrow band. In 5e, a 1st level fighter has 1 HD and typically has between 10 and 14 hit points (let's assume STR 16 and CON 18). A 10th level fighter (let's assume STR 18 CON 18 and take the average of 6 hp per level) has 10 HD and 104 hit points. A commoner has 1 HD and 4 hit points. An orc has 2 HD and 15 hit points. An ancient red dragon has 28 HD and 546 hit points. A stone giant has 11 HD and 126 hit points. A black pudding has 10 HD and 85 hit points. A horse has 2 HD and 13 hit points and a lion has 4 HD and 26 hit points. While not an exhaustive look, what I'm trying to illustrate is that the range of HD tracks closely with hit points for humanoid-type creatures only, and we want to change that.
What if you were to base hit points solely on an algorithm associated only with your physical fitness (STR) and your relatively healthiness (CON)? Why should gaining "experience points" translate into being able to take more damage unless you've actually increased your fitness, stamina, and overall health?
My favorite system (converted to D&D terminology) would assign a "base" hit point number = (10 + STR + (2 x CON))/4.
1st level Fighter = 16 hit points.
10th level Fighter = 16 hit points.
Commoner (assume 10s) = 4 hit points.
Common Orc = 12 hit points.
Ancient Red Dragon = 25 hit points.
Stone Giant = 18 hit points.
Black Pudding = 15 hit points.
Horse = 13 hit points.
Lion = 13 hit points.
Alright - now we've constrained all creatures to essentially the same scale.
So - what if, instead of attacks result in subtracting hit points, you look at various multiples of the base hit points to determine injury results?
The multiples are:
Slight (1 hp)
Moderate (base hp)
Serious (1.5 x base hp)
Critical (2 x base hp)
So - the 1st level fighters wound thresholds are 1/16/24/32 and the orc's are 1/12/18/24.
Now - let's say the injury effects are as follows:
Slight: -1 on all checks (attack rolls, saves, etc.)
Moderate: Make a CON check or go into Shock. If you fail the check by 5 or more, become Unstable. -2 on all checks.
Serious: Make a CON check or go into Shock. If you fail the check by 5 or more, become Unstable. -3 on all checks.
Critical: Go into Shock. Make a CON check or become Unstable.
Shock: Lose your turn this round. For rest of the combat, any effect that would put you into shock makes you become unstable instead. At the beginning of your turn on each subsequent round, make a WIS check - failure results in being semiconscious and unable to take any actions beyond disengaging and moving at half-speed.
Unstable: At the end of each full round, your wound level increases by one until you go one level beyond Critical at which point you have bled out and die.
The beauty of this is it allows you to add hit location as an option, so you can change up the effects (such as making a STR check to avoid dropping your weapon if hit in the arm, a check to avoid falling prone if hit in the leg, reduction in movement speed if hit in the leg, or even a chance to go lights out with a critical wound level to the head.
You ask - isn't this going to be deadly, quickly? Not necessarily, because the way this would work is that taking a lesser wound than you already have will cause no additional effects. But, taking another wound of the same severity will increase your wound level by one level. What this does is make dragons as terrifying as they ought to be for PCs of all levels and "normal" monsters more of a challenge to less experienced PCs. It also makes PCs think before they decide to enter combat since it is easy to get into, hard to get out of unless you run away, and it makes trading blow for blow less desirable because even a lowly 1 HD NPC with a lucky enough hit can increase their chances of killing a PC. It also makes PCs rather reluctant to get into fights with those stronger than them to begin with.
Example using Orc vs. 1st level fighter:
Round 1:
Fighter wins initiative, attacks, and hits with longsword, doing 6 points of damage (I'm assuming STR 16 and average 4 damage on the roll). This is a slight wound to the Orc.
Orc attacks at -1, hits and does 9 points of damage. This is a slight wound to the fighter.
Round 2: Fighter attacks at -1 and does 6 points of damage. This is a 2nd slight wound to the Orc, making him now moderately wounded. He makes his CON check (at -2) so remains in the fight, but is -2 to attack.
Orc attacks (-2) and misses.
Round 3: Fighter attacks at -1 but rolls a natural 20. Lucky rolls of 6 and 8 on the dice, resulting in 16 points of damage. This is a moderate wound to the Orc. Since the Orc already has a moderate wound, he now has a serious wound.
The Orc makes a CON check at -3 and fails. He is now in shock and can take no action this round.
Round 4: Fighter attacks (-1) and misses (rolled a 2). The orc rolls his WIS check at -3 and spectacularly makes it, rolling a 20. He snarls, as he redoubles his efforts but misses on the attack roll.
Round 5: Fighter attacks (-1) and hits, for 6 points of damage. The orc doesn't really feel this as more than a flesh wound since he is already moderately wounded and tries to make his WIS check and fails. He is now light-headed and woozy due to some blood loss (and the sting of actually having been cut multiple times by the hated human's sword) and attempts to stagger away and get out of the fight.
Round 6: Fighter goes after and attacks the helpless orc, slicing open his abdomen (critical) and hits for 18 points of damage (double 8s!!) The Orc has sustained another serious wound. Since he already has a serious wound the second one makes his injuries critical. He goes into shock. He tries to make his CON check (at -4) but fails and he becomes unstable as his intestines spill out onto the ground and pinhole leaks of blood start pouring out of his abdomen. The orc falls to his knees, trying to put his guts back in.
Round 7: The fighter puts his boot into the orc's chest and kicks him to the ground. The orc can only lay there and pray to Gruumsh. At the end of the round, his wound level increases one level and he expires in a widening pool of blood.
First - you have to concede that every creature is going to have hit points in a relatively narrow band. In 5e, a 1st level fighter has 1 HD and typically has between 10 and 14 hit points (let's assume STR 16 and CON 18). A 10th level fighter (let's assume STR 18 CON 18 and take the average of 6 hp per level) has 10 HD and 104 hit points. A commoner has 1 HD and 4 hit points. An orc has 2 HD and 15 hit points. An ancient red dragon has 28 HD and 546 hit points. A stone giant has 11 HD and 126 hit points. A black pudding has 10 HD and 85 hit points. A horse has 2 HD and 13 hit points and a lion has 4 HD and 26 hit points. While not an exhaustive look, what I'm trying to illustrate is that the range of HD tracks closely with hit points for humanoid-type creatures only, and we want to change that.
What if you were to base hit points solely on an algorithm associated only with your physical fitness (STR) and your relatively healthiness (CON)? Why should gaining "experience points" translate into being able to take more damage unless you've actually increased your fitness, stamina, and overall health?
My favorite system (converted to D&D terminology) would assign a "base" hit point number = (10 + STR + (2 x CON))/4.
1st level Fighter = 16 hit points.
10th level Fighter = 16 hit points.
Commoner (assume 10s) = 4 hit points.
Common Orc = 12 hit points.
Ancient Red Dragon = 25 hit points.
Stone Giant = 18 hit points.
Black Pudding = 15 hit points.
Horse = 13 hit points.
Lion = 13 hit points.
Alright - now we've constrained all creatures to essentially the same scale.
So - what if, instead of attacks result in subtracting hit points, you look at various multiples of the base hit points to determine injury results?
The multiples are:
Slight (1 hp)
Moderate (base hp)
Serious (1.5 x base hp)
Critical (2 x base hp)
So - the 1st level fighters wound thresholds are 1/16/24/32 and the orc's are 1/12/18/24.
Now - let's say the injury effects are as follows:
Slight: -1 on all checks (attack rolls, saves, etc.)
Moderate: Make a CON check or go into Shock. If you fail the check by 5 or more, become Unstable. -2 on all checks.
Serious: Make a CON check or go into Shock. If you fail the check by 5 or more, become Unstable. -3 on all checks.
Critical: Go into Shock. Make a CON check or become Unstable.
Shock: Lose your turn this round. For rest of the combat, any effect that would put you into shock makes you become unstable instead. At the beginning of your turn on each subsequent round, make a WIS check - failure results in being semiconscious and unable to take any actions beyond disengaging and moving at half-speed.
Unstable: At the end of each full round, your wound level increases by one until you go one level beyond Critical at which point you have bled out and die.
The beauty of this is it allows you to add hit location as an option, so you can change up the effects (such as making a STR check to avoid dropping your weapon if hit in the arm, a check to avoid falling prone if hit in the leg, reduction in movement speed if hit in the leg, or even a chance to go lights out with a critical wound level to the head.
You ask - isn't this going to be deadly, quickly? Not necessarily, because the way this would work is that taking a lesser wound than you already have will cause no additional effects. But, taking another wound of the same severity will increase your wound level by one level. What this does is make dragons as terrifying as they ought to be for PCs of all levels and "normal" monsters more of a challenge to less experienced PCs. It also makes PCs think before they decide to enter combat since it is easy to get into, hard to get out of unless you run away, and it makes trading blow for blow less desirable because even a lowly 1 HD NPC with a lucky enough hit can increase their chances of killing a PC. It also makes PCs rather reluctant to get into fights with those stronger than them to begin with.
Example using Orc vs. 1st level fighter:
Round 1:
Fighter wins initiative, attacks, and hits with longsword, doing 6 points of damage (I'm assuming STR 16 and average 4 damage on the roll). This is a slight wound to the Orc.
Orc attacks at -1, hits and does 9 points of damage. This is a slight wound to the fighter.
Round 2: Fighter attacks at -1 and does 6 points of damage. This is a 2nd slight wound to the Orc, making him now moderately wounded. He makes his CON check (at -2) so remains in the fight, but is -2 to attack.
Orc attacks (-2) and misses.
Round 3: Fighter attacks at -1 but rolls a natural 20. Lucky rolls of 6 and 8 on the dice, resulting in 16 points of damage. This is a moderate wound to the Orc. Since the Orc already has a moderate wound, he now has a serious wound.
The Orc makes a CON check at -3 and fails. He is now in shock and can take no action this round.
Round 4: Fighter attacks (-1) and misses (rolled a 2). The orc rolls his WIS check at -3 and spectacularly makes it, rolling a 20. He snarls, as he redoubles his efforts but misses on the attack roll.
Round 5: Fighter attacks (-1) and hits, for 6 points of damage. The orc doesn't really feel this as more than a flesh wound since he is already moderately wounded and tries to make his WIS check and fails. He is now light-headed and woozy due to some blood loss (and the sting of actually having been cut multiple times by the hated human's sword) and attempts to stagger away and get out of the fight.
Round 6: Fighter goes after and attacks the helpless orc, slicing open his abdomen (critical) and hits for 18 points of damage (double 8s!!) The Orc has sustained another serious wound. Since he already has a serious wound the second one makes his injuries critical. He goes into shock. He tries to make his CON check (at -4) but fails and he becomes unstable as his intestines spill out onto the ground and pinhole leaks of blood start pouring out of his abdomen. The orc falls to his knees, trying to put his guts back in.
Round 7: The fighter puts his boot into the orc's chest and kicks him to the ground. The orc can only lay there and pray to Gruumsh. At the end of the round, his wound level increases one level and he expires in a widening pool of blood.
The Crimson Binome
Hero
If I follow this correctly, a battle against a dragon would play out as follows:
- The mage hits the dragon with a level 1 magic missile, increasing its injury level to "slight" and giving it -1 to most checks.
- The cleric uses a cantrip, dealing ~3 damage, which increases the dragon's wound level to "moderate" and gives it -2 to most checks.
- The rest of the party attacks, firing any number of arrows and swinging their swords repeatedly; and they're just fishing for crits, because any attack that does less than 25 damage is going to be ignored.
- The dragon definitely kills the entire party, because it's literally invincible at this stage of the fight.
- Unless there's a rogue in the party, of course. Sneak attack bypasses invincibility, and the dragon will die in two more hits from the rogue, which are the only hits that matter.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
If your above note is correct, then yes - 1 HD for 1st-level characters is inconsistent.
This part doesn't bother me nearly so much - I see 1st-level adventuring as very much "rogue-like" anyway.
So maybe the answer is to go the other way: reduce the HD of 1st-level NPCs and common basic monsters to 1 HD rather than 2; instead of inflating 1st-level character HD (and thus h.p.) numbers..
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
What it also unfortunately shuts down is the "death by a thousand cuts" trope.
But there is a fix: after taking two slight wounds to make a moderate, two* more then represent another moderate, which then combines with the first moderate to make a serious. Lather rinse repeat, such that any creature can eventually be killed by application of enough slight wounds. This would, however, be a nuisance to track; particularly when you're running a bunch of foes and even more so if you want to vary how many 'slights' are required to add another injury layer as the creature's condition gets worse.
* - or whatever other number makes sense - could be three, for example, except for the first set of two.
Similar Threads
