D&D 5E The "everyone at full fighting ability at 1 hp" conundrum

[Lanefan]

Well sure. I think Star Wars D20 used a system like that. But doesn't the prove the point? Systems like that have existed, in multiple versions over multiple decades, and they've never overtaken good old HP in popularity.

Largely because most people in the hobby don't know they exist and-or haven't developed their own version (which we did, about 36 years ago).

Sometimes simplicity and ease of use are important virtues.

Agreed. The questions then becomes one of balancing simplicity and realism, because adding to one tends to reduce the other; and what point along that spectrum of balance is suitable for each table.

 

[Zio_the_dark]

I'm trying a wound system for my custom game but it has not been tested that much. It does add a bit of complexity and tracking (I'm using a computer tool to keep track of everything) and may not be balanced but here's my take on it.

Characters start healthy, fit and confident. Damage, special effects and intense activity may increase these levels with secondary effects listed on the following tables.

Wound level​	Effect​	Rest time​
Healthy​	Standard state, No effect	-​
Bruised​	-1 to attack rolls	1 day​
Injured​	Weary, -1 to attack rolls and saves	2 days​
Wounded​	Tired, -2 to attack rolls and saves	2 days​
Critical​	Fatigued, -2 to attack rolls and saves, Roll on critical injury table	2 days​
Death​	Exhausted, Character makes a death saving throw or dies*	3 days​

Exhaust level​	Effect​	Rest time​
Fit​	Standard state, No effect	-​
Weary​	-1 to skill and ability tests (STR/DEX/CON)	6 hours​
Tired​	-2 to skill and ability tests (STR/DEX/CON)	4 hours​
Spent​	Cannot run, -3 to skill and ability tests (STR/DEX/CON)	2 hours​
Fatigued​	Cannot run, -4 to skill and ability tests (STR/DEX/CON), 25% spell failure	2 hours​
Exhausted​	Half speed, Cannot run, -6 to skill and ability tests (STR/DEX/CON), 50% spell failure	1 hour​

Fear level​	Effect​
Confident​	Standard state, No effect
Uneasy​	-1 to attack rolls against target of fear
Shaken​	-2 to attack rolls against target of fear
Frightened​	Character tries to flee, Fights if unable with -3 penalty
Terrified​	Character tries to flee, Fights if unable with -4 penalty
Horrified​	Character tries to flee, Cower if unable

Wound level increase by 1 whenever a character suffer damage at least equal to 6 + CON modifier + 2 * level (DD5) or 4 + CON modifier + ½ * level (DD4) in a single hit/round? This one I'm still searching for a good value...
Exhaust level increase by 1 every 16 + CON modifier hours without resting, when a special effect cause exhaustion, or if a very strenuous activity is taken (DM appreciation).
Fear level increase by 1 depending on special effects and failed saves. Fear levels recover as soon as the effect duration or the target of fear dies/disappear.
Fear and exhaustion levels can increase by more than 1 level if an effect state otherwise.

A character at 0 hp gains 1 wound level every time he suffers damage.

Rest time to recover from 1 exhaustion or wound level is shown in the table and are cumulative.

But as said before, sometime simplicity and ease of use are important. This adds quite a level of complexity to combat tracking and needs adaptation for some rules (fear and exhaustion).

 

[pemerton]

NPC hp = meat, but PCs its fatigue; hp represent glancing blows

<snip>

Why should the same attacks doing the same amount of hp reduction represent physical injury to NPCs but not for PCs?

Why not?

It's important for the play of a game like D&D (as it is typically played) that the protagonists not be defeated too easily by physical violence. Treating hp differently for the protagonists and antagonists helps with this.

I think there needs to be a better way.

Some type of mechanic that could use hit points, not as a pool to deduct from, but as a trip point to initiate various effects that reduce combat effectiveness, while also allowing that single deadly blow to occur.

A mechanic could be used that allows you to determine how long it takes for injuries to resolve naturally (I concede that magical healing could be used to either bypass complete or speed up the natural healing process). That same mechanic could be used to determine if you suffer any permanent impairments as a result of healing naturally with no intervention (e.g. you suffer damage resulting in a critical injury and do not use the appropriate healing spell or find a chirurgeon, you should have permanent impairment)

There are many RPG systems that have various aspects of what you mention here, or at least features in the neighbourhood. RuneQuest, Rolemaster and Burning Wheel are three examples.

 

[Bigsta]

Isn't that a closed loop? Final Fantasy 1 was a straight up D&D clone in video game form, down to Monster Manual denizens like the beholder and mind flayer. Diablo might have a less immediately direct lineage, but it's still ultimately a game about going into dungeons to kill monsters for gold and magic weapons, which is the genre D&D pioneered. And a lot of fantasy anime is either directly riffing off D&D (Lodoss War, Slayers, etc) or riffing off things not more than one or two steps removed from D&D.

I 100% agree with you. That's why I went with Final Fantasy 2/4 because that is the American release where the series visibly steered away from being a direct D&D game. D&D had a tremendous influence on the development of videogames (and still does). However, since the original Diablo released, videogames have influenced D&D just as much as D&D influenced them. I would argue its nearly a symbiotic relationship at this point.

And thank you for citing to 2 of my favorite animes because, "Every DM want's their campaign to be Lodoss War, but they all become Slayers."

 

[FrogReaver]

Let me make an example.

Suppose hp is meat. Suppose your hp is 10.
Suppose that we treat all blows from dragons as lethal.
Now our PC's die to dragons to fast.

Therefore, to allow them to fight dragons we create a mechanic whereby they have a pool of points and can spend a point and avoid any damage - essentially turning a hit into what in game would be classified as a miss.

However, this small pool of resources where we spend one at a time doesn't allow us to differentiate the power of dragons with the power of giants.

So to solve that we change the system where an attack has a power value associated with it and we still get a pool of points to spend but a lot more now to cover the power value differences in attacks.

HP as we have it today is just combing the meat and the resource pool I spoke about above into a single value and then never defining where meat ends and the other begins. What are the benefits of hp this way? It allows a lot of narrative freedom.

 

[Garthanos]

What are the benefits of hp this way? It allows a lot of narrative freedom.

Which is virtually what I was saying but I gave explicit example with regards to how the abstraction empowers differentiating character style.

And none of that is even really about being "realistic'. Human response to injuring is incredibly erratic. Strangely the saves before dying mechanic could be the most realistic D&D has implemented.

 

[FrogReaver]

Which is virtually what I was saying but I gave explicit example with regards to how the abstraction empowers differentiating character style.

The way this is worded comes off as quite antagonistic IMO.

 

[Garthanos]

The way this is worded comes off as quite antagonistic IMO.

It was meant in utter agreement?

You gave the generalized statement that someone might understand one way... I didnt and provided a different way of understanding what is kind of the same idea.

But my examples may miss the broader sense for instance its not entirely clear from my examples that it is a good DM tool which saying its narrative might catch better.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The way this is worded comes off as quite antagonistic IMO.

One of those odd examples of being violently in agreement.

 

[FrogReaver]

It was mean in utter agreement??

Okay but IMO, typically when people say something like what you said, it is said in the middle of a heated disagreement.