D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

Who said she had formal training? The fact of the matter is, regardless of how you interpret 5e, the character Tika was first given class levels in 1984 (in DL2: Dragons of Flame) where she is presented as a dual-class (formerly) 3rd-level thief/4th-level fighter NPC.
Which is exactly what I said about the stable boy possibly being a level 1 rogue, but definitely not a fighter. Fighters are proficient in heavy armor and greatswords, and a stable boy can't be a fighter because they never had that training.

Tika is a case of a legacy character not translating well outside of the edition they were created. She can be a fighter now if the whole barmaid thing is in her past, and she has since moved on to being a veteran warrior, but she can't start out as a fighter while she's currently still just a barmaid. That is inconsistent with the description of what a fighter is.
 

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Boy, have we got a thread for that!

But I just want to pipe in to say I gained my preference for Standard Array for a different reason. At the end of our 3e run, My co-DM was a little fed up with the high numbers that 3e's Roll and reroll rules gave the PCs so when we rebuilt the characters for 5e he had us use the Array to cut our numbers down a peg.

I found it weirdly refreshing. And I liked that my half-orc's Strength dropped from his starting 20 down to 17. I had room to grow!

And then I noticed something else. With the highest starting value (before race) being 15, it feels like the bar for "good at something" is proficiency +2. So now all my 12s and 13s feel decent. And my 16 is great, and I'm not inclined to bother with ASIs to pump anything up to 20.

Using the array has made me less concerned about the numbers.

And it helps achieve my co-DM's original goal. There seems no need to up the number of monsters or their deadliness to make the combats feel more threatening than they had before.

The part you quoted wasn't about array vs rolling. It was about how some people can't stand to have another PC with a better stat than them. There is overlap, sure, but they aren't mutually exclusive. Could be from stat generation, a magical item, something in the game to increase a stat, etc.

My distaste for array I mentioned earlier wasn't necessarily because of the system (I've used array a lot myself), but with the end result. That being, every fighter has the same STR/DEX and CON as every other fighter. Every wizard has the same INT, etc, etc. I find that incredibly boring and not reflective of fantasy adventurers in literature and media.
 

In fact I find it curious that a portion of the D&D fan base wants a reality bending fighter but doesn't want the developers to use D&D magic (mainly spells) to empower the concept...
I was about to ask if there was anyone like that, but then Mistwell reminded me I'm one of them. Yes, a Wuxia fightr woukd be cool.

Unless - and this is giant, dealbreaking, I'm done with D&D size qualifier - unless that takes the place of a brawny, gritty, by the strength of my arm fighter.

Putting supernatural abilities onto the core fighter would eliminate a lot of character concepts.

So I'm back to wondring if there's actually anyone like you describe, or what you're really talking about are people who like me are saying "wuxia fighters would be awesome - but keep the non-magical fighter in the game."
 

I guess look at it like this. If you tell me your race and class, and I can tell you exactly what each of your stats are without looking at your character sheet, that doesn't sit right with me. I get how this is totally a personal preference thing. Taken to the extreme, why have stats at all? why not just say, "If you're a fighter, get +3 to hit and damage with either ranged or melee weapons. Gain +1 to this every 4 levels. If you're a half orc, gain +1 to hit and damage with weapons." etc etc if every single half orc fighter currently has the same end result as that.
 

The part you quoted wasn't about array vs rolling..
Aye. I didn't really make it clear, but my first line was meant as a joking reference to exactly that one line I quoted. I was trying to say "I don't mean to derail this thread" as I went on to derail the thread.

The rest of the post was just me talking about how I came to prefer the standard array, sparked by your mention somewhere else in your post of why you disliked it. I wasn't trying to argue it at all (arguing our preferences is clearly, if you've read it, what that other thread is for!), just chatting.
 

The flaw in the design is that the fighter never needed to simple, it never needed to have a flat design. Newcomers don’t play fighters,they want to play wizards, rogues and monks. My kids are 10 and 8 when I started them, they wanted to play Reinhardt (a Paladin essentially) and Genji (Shurikens = monks) from Overwatch.

Fighters in 4e and Warblades before had powers that differed by weapon type (always a good idea) and were thematic and also team oriented. That’s what’s needed.


Sent from my iPhone using EN World
 

Is this a D&D thing though.
Yes, a D&D /Community/ thing. And as D&D goes, so goes the hobby, for the most part.

But, it's not a fantasy-genre or myth/legend thing. Heroes in genre (not even limited to the fantasy genre, action heroes in general do crazy stuff as a matter of course, even in settings where the supernatural is not on the table) go well beyond the pedantic dictates of the community's double-standard.

And, D&D, itself has occasionally violated it's own community's double-standard, resulting in considerable controversy.

Can you name a fantasy rpg where the equivalent of a D&D fighter gets non-magical but reality bending abilities?
"Reality-bending" doesn't sound meaningfully different from 'magical' - it'd still be supernatural in some way, just with the hand doing the waving not holding a wand. Psionics, for instance, nominally 'not magical' but still supernatural - and, magical enough to slide on the double-standard in question. Like magic, psionics can do basically anything in D&D.

The ones that spring to my mind... Exalted, Earthdawn, Heroquest, and so on all actually use magic as the justification. In fact I find it curious that a portion of the D&D fan base wants a reality bending fighter but doesn't want the developers to use D&D magic (mainly spells) to empower the concept...
Here, you are clearly illustrating the double-standard. You cannot even bring yourself to articulate the concept a fighter not fettered by genre-inappropriate enforcement of 'realism.' You default to anything along those lines necessarily being 'magic.'

Of course, no one will be able to give you an example of a non-magical fighter performing magical feats non-magically, because you you're asking for a paradox. Not anymore than an Omnipotent God can create a stone He can't lift.


To facilitated the discussion, let's set aside the fraught terminology of - magic, spells, fighters, realism, etc - and settle on a clear definition of the kinds of abilities being excluded. Consider natural vs supernatural. For our purposes, here's a test:

"Is the feat in question the same in kind as an ordinary feat?" For instance, a man can break a rock with a hammer. Perfectly natural. Now, our hero walks up to a castle wall with his warhammer and smashes a breach in it that 4 knights could ride abreast through. That's impossible, it's superhuman, but it's not supernatural: it's still basically just breaking a rock with a hammer. Or maybe he simply leaps over the castle wall. Again, impossible, way beyond the world's record high jump, and he's wearing full armor. But, people can leap. It's like hopping over a knee-high railing, in kind, which is perfectly natural. So leaping over the castle was is not supernatural.

On the other side, consider a man without a hammer talking to a rock, and the rock shattering. That's not natural, even though it's well within the abilities of people to break rocks. In D&D, it's a classic spell, called Shatter, and you can use more powerful spells to take down (or put back up) a castle wall. Plenty of other things are supernatural. Mind-to-mind Telepathy (actual two-way contact with awareness of another mind, not just 'ESP,' which can be put down to intuition, cold-reading, and lucky guesses), Teleportation, de-materialization, ex nillo conjuration, etc...

Make sense?

When an ability in D&D crosses the line between accomplishing what people normally can and the superhuman, it generally gets a free pass /if/ it's supernatural, but it's likely questioned if it's not.

That's the double standard.

Heck, sometimes, even if a non-supernatural ability /is/ arguably within the realms of merely-human ability, it catches flack. ;)

There's massive outcry if the fighter gets anything remotely non-mundane - even if it's just a nod to the abstraction of combat in D&D.

Best example I can think of recently was when the designers tried to put in some damage on a miss mechanics (ex. even if you miss you do your strength mod in damage) - the outcry was swift and massive.
Yes, like that. Hps are crazy-abstract, including all sorts of non-physical factors, that you might degrade without laying a glove on the other guy - indeed, that even a hit that did damage might do no physical damage is a point made in 1e, and re-iterated in a less wordy form in 5e.
 
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The flaw in the design is that the fighter never needed to simple, it never needed to have a flat design. Newcomers don’t play fighters,they want to play wizards, rogues and monks. My kids are 10 and 8 when I started them, they wanted to play Reinhardt (a Paladin essentially) and Genji (Shurikens = monks) from Overwatch.

Fighters in 4e and Warblades before had powers that differed by weapon type (always a good idea) and were thematic and also team oriented. That’s what’s needed.


Sent from my iPhone using EN World

I think you're mistakenly assuming the fighter was simple for new players. Not true. The fighter is simpler because a lot of people, newbies and experienced players, want a simpler mundane class. Going back to emulate 4e would be a HUGE turn off for me. There are plenty of other fightery type classes in 5e that have powers (barbarians, rangers, paladins). Leave the fighter alone. Not every class in the PHB has to be like you (general you) want.
 


I was about to ask if there was anyone like that, but then Mistwell reminded me I'm one of them. Yes, a Wuxia fightr woukd be cool.

Unless - and this is giant, dealbreaking, I'm done with D&D size qualifier - unless that takes the place of a brawny, gritty, by the strength of my arm fighter.

Putting supernatural abilities onto the core fighter would eliminate a lot of character concepts.

So I'm back to wondring if there's actually anyone like you describe, or what you're really talking about are people who like me are saying "wuxia fighters would be awesome - but keep the non-magical fighter in the game."

Actually having their abilities not be magical in nature would be an important concept as their abilities would be immune to an anti-magic field. That’s pretty unique.

My friend has a world he was trying to pitch that magic was everywhere except a certain group of people who were completely immune to magic, even beneficial magic, and thus stood out. No magic would work at all in or near them, so for example a continual flame streetlight would be suppressed if they got close enough. No magical healing, no potions, etc. Tougher than you think trying to play one, as death was permanent, raise dead wouldn’t work.


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