D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

[Oofta]

I've yet to find any popular 3PP that isn't more powerful than anything a hypothetical WOTC might have published.

"Anything hypothetical WOTC might have published." Is a tad vague don't you think?

They made a design choice based on feedback from the public. Right? Wrong? It's a matter of opinion. I think it was the right choice. Between subclasses, backgrounds and feats we have a reasonable amount of flexibility.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If you have a counter example just post it

The vast majority of Mage Hand Press's work, which is voluminous, is so concerned with not exceeding WotC in power that in many cases it comes off under par.

To be fair, however, as the claimant you really should have been the one providing examples.

 

[FrogReaver]

The vast majority of Mage Hand Press's work, which is voluminous, is so concerned with not exceeding WotC in power that in many cases it comes off under par.

Thanks. Haven’t seen them before. I’ll take a look.

To be fair, however, as the claimant you really should have been the one providing examples.

I don't think so.
1. My claim was about what I’ve seen.
2. It wasn’t a particularly controversial claim.
3. The most we would have gained by me providing an example is whether you agreed that the specific example I cited was stronger than wotc’s stuff. No example I could provide would actually be enough to support the claim I made - it’s the nature of such types of claims.
4. One counter example by you though and while it doesn’t directly disprove my claim because I made a personal claim - it does provide evidence that my personal perspective may be a bit limited.

 

[FrogReaver]

They made a design choice based on feedback from the public. Right? Wrong? It's a matter of opinion. I think it was the right choice. Between subclasses, backgrounds and feats we have a reasonable amount of flexibility.

Pretty sure the class/subclass design paradigm was locked in from the beginning. The exact implementations were subject to change but I don’t recall that ever being up for a vote.

 

[Minigiant]

Give me non-5e Wiki examples of this "power creep" you speak of please.

Some of the Taldorei stuff is very powerful and super easy to cheese.

 

[Zardnaar]

It's only gets thin because the people who work at WOTC aren't broad in their consumption of fantasy.

They literally could only think of 3 monk subclasses and 2 ranger subclasses and 2 barbarians subclasses in the PHB.

Think it's more because they had 8 wizard specialists as early as 1989.

2E did it and 3E retained them. Different types of fighter didn't really stick eg 2E kits or 3E prestige classes.

 

[FrogReaver]

The vast majority of Mage Hand Press's work, which is voluminous, is so concerned with not exceeding WotC in power that in many cases it comes off under par.

In there an example of there stuff that’s not behind a paywall?

 

[Minigiant]

Think it's more because they had 8 wizard specialists as early as 1989.

2E did it and 3E retained them. Different types of fighter didn't really stick eg 2E kits or 3E prestige classes.

Specialist and Generalist could be 2 subclasses.

 

[ECMO3]

I've yet to find any popular 3PP that isn't more powerful than anything a hypothetical WOTC might have published.

It depends on what you mean by 3PP. Some off the stuff done by Matt Mercer is more powerful, but that is also now official WOTC. Does that count as 3PP?

That is the only content I personally have seen that offers any subclass or spell options more powerful than the top end of what WOTC produced.

 

[ECMO3]

Why/how would advanced martial manoeuvres and mechanics be any more complex than any of the spellcasting nonsense we already deal with?

The would not be more complex, they just don't have the same story/wow elements that spells have and I think for that reason most people don't want them.

My 2nd level spell was Hold Person, now I am third level and can throw a huge ball of fire is cool.

A martial that could stun an oppenent at 3rd level and then at 5th can damage everyone within 30 feet with an attack action is largely the same mechanic and no more complex than the spells, but I don't think most players want or care about this at their table. I don't think it ads much to the story or character for most players.

And given the amount of threads I’ve seen between here and reddit I think I can confidently say there’s at least a decent portion of players who would like a more nuanced martial combat system.

There are some, but I think it is a relatively small minority of players overall. It is probably at least a plurality of players who post on forums like this though.

If you don’t want to use it that’s fine but don’t take it away from the people who do want it just because you don’t.

That statement works both ways, and I would argue WOTC is going to cater to the majority and the other side can homebrew if they can find a group of players that see things their way.