Spelljammer The Forgotten Realms eats Spelljammer before it even finishes digesting Radiant Citadel!

[Micah Sweet]

Except, no, they're not. There are very valid reasons to not consider the "gods" of the Forgotten Realms to actually be gods. Keith Baker has outlined before why Eberron being a part of the D&D Multiverse doesn't invalidate the themes of the setting in any way. Eberron wouldn't consider Tyr or Asmodeus to be gods for very valid reasons, just like they don't consider the Progenitor Dragons or Demon Overlords to be gods. The fact that the other settings do consider those powerful entities to be gods doesn't mean that they actually are.

Re-defining a problem doesn't make it go away.

 

[Hussar]

Except, no, they're not. There are very valid reasons to not consider the "gods" of the Forgotten Realms to actually be gods. Keith Baker has outlined before why Eberron being a part of the D&D Multiverse doesn't invalidate the themes of the setting in any way. Eberron wouldn't consider Tyr or Asmodeus to be gods for very valid reasons, just like they don't consider the Progenitor Dragons or Demon Overlords to be gods. The fact that the other settings do consider those powerful entities to be gods doesn't mean that they actually are.

That's where it always gets tricky doesn't it?

Because the books are telling you that Tyr (for example) is a god. It's not a debate. It's right there in black and white. There's no real doubt in Forgotten Realms are gods or not. Now, you can ignore that, sure, and add doubt to the setting, but, as written, there isn't any doubt. These are gods. They're listed as gods, they are described as gods and nowhere in any of their material is there even a hint that this might not be true.

Then you move over to a different setting, like Eberron, where it's very specific that these beings might or might not be gods. It's in doubt. It's a totally different approach.

That's where it gets so sticky with these multiverse approaches. Because all these different gods aren't different versions, each unique to that universe, like an infinite number of Spider-men or Loki's, but, rather, each of these beings are supposed to be unique. There is only one Asmodeus and he appears in different settings. There is only one Correlon, even if the appearance and details might vary somewhat from setting to setting. That's supposed to be the same being.

D&D's approach to multiverse has a serious problem. Instead of each universe being unique, you have many universes with these beings that span across them - which means that you get all sorts of conflicting information about these beings. It's one of the reasons I have always disliked the Planescape model which D&D uses. There isn't one Demogorgon. There's a different Demogorgon in every universe that has an Abyss. If there's no Abyss in that setting? Then there's no Demogorgon.

D&D really needs to embrace a true multiverse system rather than this sort of pan-dimensional beings threaded through many different alternative realities.

 

[James Gasik]

I think someone at WotC thinks it would be easier if they only had to produce content for one campaign setting, and that while demand for other settings exists, they'd rather have an established multiverse akin to their MtG line, and can then churn out content for all of them at once.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's where it always gets tricky doesn't it?

Because the books are telling you that Tyr (for example) is a god. It's not a debate. It's right there in black and white. There's no real doubt in Forgotten Realms are gods or not. Now, you can ignore that, sure, and add doubt to the setting, but, as written, there isn't any doubt. These are gods. They're listed as gods, they are described as gods and nowhere in any of their material is there even a hint that this might not be true.

Then you move over to a different setting, like Eberron, where it's very specific that these beings might or might not be gods. It's in doubt. It's a totally different approach.

That's where it gets so sticky with these multiverse approaches. Because all these different gods aren't different versions, each unique to that universe, like an infinite number of Spider-men or Loki's, but, rather, each of these beings are supposed to be unique. There is only one Asmodeus and he appears in different settings. There is only one Correlon, even if the appearance and details might vary somewhat from setting to setting. That's supposed to be the same being.

D&D's approach to multiverse has a serious problem. Instead of each universe being unique, you have many universes with these beings that span across them - which means that you get all sorts of conflicting information about these beings. It's one of the reasons I have always disliked the Planescape model which D&D uses. There isn't one Demogorgon. There's a different Demogorgon in every universe that has an Abyss. If there's no Abyss in that setting? Then there's no Demogorgon.

D&D really needs to embrace a true multiverse system rather than this sort of pan-dimensional beings threaded through many different alternative realities.

Well, they of course don't need to do anything. You want them to change the entire conception of the Multiverse. I'd like them to keep it more or less the way it was in 2nd edition. Neither of us are going to get what we want.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Re-defining a problem doesn't make it go away.

If the problem between settings revolves around the definition of the word "god", then it's not actually a problem. Sure, there are some super powerful entities from halfway across the Multiverse that created some world. Whoopty doo. Doesn't make them a god in that solar system and doesn't make them a god in an unconnected solar system. They're just super powerful aliens that can make worlds. A powerful enough wizard can do that given sufficient time and resources. Eberron has a more Western definition of "gods" where a "god" is an entity that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. None of the "gods" from the Forgotten Realms qualify as that, therefore they aren't gods and the people of Eberron would treat them as they do the Demon Overlords.

That's where it always gets tricky doesn't it?

Because the books are telling you that Tyr (for example) is a god. It's not a debate. It's right there in black and white. There's no real doubt in Forgotten Realms are gods or not. Now, you can ignore that, sure, and add doubt to the setting, but, as written, there isn't any doubt. These are gods. They're listed as gods, they are described as gods and nowhere in any of their material is there even a hint that this might not be true.

Then you move over to a different setting, like Eberron, where it's very specific that these beings might or might not be gods. It's in doubt. It's a totally different approach.

They aren't gods. At least, they wouldn't be considered gods in Eberron (and if I were to meet Tyr or Auril in real life, I wouldn't consider them gods, either). They're just powerful celestials/fiends that have powerful enough magic to make worlds.

That's where it gets so sticky with these multiverse approaches. Because all these different gods aren't different versions, each unique to that universe, like an infinite number of Spider-men or Loki's, but, rather, each of these beings are supposed to be unique. There is only one Asmodeus and he appears in different settings. There is only one Correlon, even if the appearance and details might vary somewhat from setting to setting. That's supposed to be the same being.

D&D's approach to multiverse has a serious problem. Instead of each universe being unique, you have many universes with these beings that span across them - which means that you get all sorts of conflicting information about these beings. It's one of the reasons I have always disliked the Planescape model which D&D uses. There isn't one Demogorgon. There's a different Demogorgon in every universe that has an Abyss. If there's no Abyss in that setting? Then there's no Demogorgon.

D&D really needs to embrace a true multiverse system rather than this sort of pan-dimensional beings threaded through many different alternative realities.

I'm pretty sure that there is just one Demogorgon. The settings share the Great Wheel, and if the Demogorgon is permanently killed by someone from Exandria, the Demogorgon is also dead for the Forgotten Realms. There are some entities that do have variants in different realities, like Dragons according to Fizban's, but there's only one Asmodeus. Their different version in the different worlds is just a different representation of the same entity (kind of like how Ancient Greece and Rome worshipped basically the same pantheon, but the individual gods were very different between cultures because they thought of them in different ways).

 

[Hussar]

Well, they of course don't need to do anything. You want them to change the entire conception of the Multiverse. I'd like them to keep it more or less the way it was in 2nd edition. Neither of us are going to get what we want.

Then there is no problem is there? Because the way it was in 2e is exactly the way it is now. Once you hit the planes, it's Planescape all the way down. You have singular, unique beings that have a presence in all settings which share the Great Wheel. So, Orcus is Orcus regardless if you meet Orcus in Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or Krynn. So, no, you got exactly what you wanted.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If the problem between settings revolves around the definition of the word "god", then it's not actually a problem. Sure, there are some super powerful entities from halfway across the Multiverse that created some world. Whoopty doo. Doesn't make them a god in that solar system and doesn't make them a god in an unconnected solar system. They're just super powerful aliens that can make worlds. A powerful enough wizard can do that given sufficient time and resources. Eberron has a more Western definition of "gods" where a "god" is an entity that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. None of the "gods" from the Forgotten Realms qualify as that, therefore they aren't gods and the people of Eberron would treat them as they do the Demon Overlords.

They aren't gods. At least, they wouldn't be considered gods in Eberron (and if I were to meet Tyr or Auril in real life, I wouldn't consider them gods, either). They're just powerful celestials/fiends that have powerful enough magic to make worlds.

I'm pretty sure that there is just one Demogorgon. The settings share the Great Wheel, and if the Demogorgon is permanently killed by someone from Exandria, the Demogorgon is also dead for the Forgotten Realms. There are some entities that do have variants in different realities, like Dragons according to Fizban's, but there's only one Asmodeus. Their different version in the different worlds is just a different representation of the same entity (kind of like how Ancient Greece and Rome worshipped basically the same pantheon, but the individual gods were very different between cultures because they thought of them in different ways).

Do they define gods in Eberron as you describe, or are you making an assumption?

Also, clearly the issue is how they're described in the books, which seems to be an issue for some. Unless they change the text, your semantics solutions aren't going to cut it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Then there is no problem is there? Because the way it was in 2e is exactly the way it is now. Once you hit the planes, it's Planescape all the way down. You have singular, unique beings that have a presence in all settings which share the Great Wheel. So, Orcus is Orcus regardless if you meet Orcus in Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk or Krynn. So, no, you got exactly what you wanted.

Good point. Sorry, arguing for arguing sake here. I need to lie down.

 

[Hussar]

They aren't gods. At least, they wouldn't be considered gods in Eberron (and if I were to meet Tyr or Auril in real life, I wouldn't consider them gods, either). They're just powerful celestials/fiends that have powerful enough magic to make worlds.

But, according to what is ACTUALLY WRITTEN about these beings, you would be factually wrong. Again, there's no doubt here. It's right there in the first lines of the various Deities books that have been written for Forgotten Realms or for Greyhawk since day 1. These are gods. Full stop. A god is a powerful celestial/fiend that can make worlds. That's exactly what a god IS. Claiming that Tiamat is not a god or Lolth is not a god is flat earth territory. It's just factually wrong.

Now, in your game? Go right ahead. In my game, I treat the whole thing VERY differently than what the books say. But, we're talking about what the books ACTUALLY tell you. And there's no doubt here. These are gods.

Which is why you get problems when different settings try to change the definitions. The settings are largely incompatible that way and you wind up with these bizarre situations where something is both a god and not a god depending on which mountaintop the being is standing on.

I'm pretty sure that there is just one Demogorgon. The settings share the Great Wheel, and if the Demogorgon is permanently killed by someone from Exandria, the Demogorgon is also dead for the Forgotten Realms. There are some entities that do have variants in different realities, like Dragons according to Fizban's, but there's only one Asmodeus. Their different version in the different worlds is just a different representation of the same entity (kind of like how Ancient Greece and Rome worshipped basically the same pantheon, but the individual gods were very different between cultures because they thought of them in different ways).

Oh, absolutely. Yes, I agree. That's how it's set up. That's how it has been set up in D&D since Planescape (and probably before). These beings are unique and singular. Which would be fine, except that it's a bit more than your Greece/Rome example because both Greece and Rome had no problems calling these being gods. It wasn't that Zeus suddenly stopped being a god just because he was called Jupiter.

But that's the problem in D&D. In D&D, Zeus stops being a god depending on which setting you want to plonk him in, but, he's supposed to be exactly the same individual. So, you wind up with quantum deities that are both divine and not-divine at the same time.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Zeus would still be Divine, but lots of people would not consider him a god. It’s why the nickname Powers was used by many in Planescape.