Spelljammer The Forgotten Realms eats Spelljammer before it even finishes digesting Radiant Citadel!

[James Gasik]

Oh I totally agree with you. 100%. But that’s not how it’s presented in the books. You don’t have a Greyhawk Demogorgon and a Krynn Demogorgon. You just have one and only one. Same as all the other unique entities in the game. Regardless of setting, Asmodeus lives on the ninth plane of Hell. Even in settings that don’t have Hell apparently.

Which makes for some weird contradictions when going from setting to setting.

Yeah but let's look at it this way- if Corellon Larethian is killed in a Forgotten Realms novel, does that mean he's dead in Oerth?

I don't even want to get into "revelations" in Forgotten Realms that certain Elven Gods (Aerdrie Faenya, Hanali Celanil, and Sehanine Moonbow) were "actually" Akadi, Sune, and Selune....(or Angharradh) at one point.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah but let's look at it this way- if Corellon Larethian is killed in a Forgotten Realms novel, does that mean he's dead in Oerth?

I don't even want to get into "revelations" in Forgotten Realms that certain Elven Gods (Aerdrie Faenya, Hanali Celanil, and Sehanine Moonbow) were "actually" Akadi, Sune, and Selune....(or Angharradh) at one point.

That's the point. According to how it officially works, then, absolutely yes. If Corellon is killed on his home plane, Corellon is dead. Full stop. Dead everywhere. Which is why something like Savage Tides in 3e is a problem. According to the adventure, Demogorgon is dead. As in all the way dead. At least, if you completed the adventure he is. Which means, by canon, Demogorgon should no longer appear in D&D.

But, we ignore that. Totally glossed over.

I would much prefer a true multiverse system where each universe is distinct and unique. Certain individuals appear in various universes, fair enough, but, Krynn Demogorgon is not Greyhawk Demogorgon nor is he Forgotten Realms Demogorgon.

Although, to be fair, I am interested more in how Fizban's is presenting this. It seems, from the tiny snippet I saw here, that they're going to go with idea that the sort of Platonic Ideal of these beings is unreachable. So, it doesn't matter that it's the same critter across all the worlds, none of those are actually the real original thing anyway. It's one way to reconcile inconsistencies.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Either they are, or they are not gods. Your solution keeps the themes of Eberron intact. But now you just have the same problem in reverse, with Eberron themes bleeding into the Forgotten Realms.

That's what I meant with the multiverse approach muddling the individual settings.

Um, no, because what people consider to be "gods" differs from culture to culture. Which is absolutely fine. Eberron just wouldn't consider Planescape/FR deities to actually be "gods", and Planescape wouldn't consider Eberron's pantheons to be "gods".

I seriously don't see what the problem is here. Different people have different definitions of what is and isn't a "god". That's not a problem and isn't a problem with the D&D Multiverse. It just reflects the real world.

This is so weird though, no? Is the Exandrian Vecna the same as in every other setting? If so, what if Vox Machina managed to prevent his ascension to godhood? Would the other settings have to stop using him as a god? Now you don't just have to consider the canon of one setting. You have to consider the others canon too. And what's the benefit of this default crossover approach?

Yeah, it is weird. I'm not defending this. I do think that Vecna is more of a special case and is similar to Dragons, where he has "variants" in different worlds, maybe something to do with the First World can explain this. However, this is weird and confusing, and does need explaining. I don't think it's been handled well any time in D&D's past. Hopefully WotC can fix this in a future Planescape book.

 

[Parmandur]

That's the point. According to how it officially works, then, absolutely yes. If Corellon is killed on his home plane, Corellon is dead. Full stop. Dead everywhere. Which is why something like Savage Tides in 3e is a problem. According to the adventure, Demogorgon is dead. As in all the way dead. At least, if you completed the adventure he is. Which means, by canon, Demogorgon should no longer appear in D&D.

But, we ignore that. Totally glossed over.

I would much prefer a true multiverse system where each universe is distinct and unique. Certain individuals appear in various universes, fair enough, but, Krynn Demogorgon is not Greyhawk Demogorgon nor is he Forgotten Realms Demogorgon.

Although, to be fair, I am interested more in how Fizban's is presenting this. It seems, from the tiny snippet I saw here, that they're going to go with idea that the sort of Platonic Ideal of these beings is unreachable. So, it doesn't matter that it's the same critter across all the worlds, none of those are actually the real original thing anyway. It's one way to reconcile inconsistencies.

Yeah, Fizban's is fairly explicit on this: the stat blocks for Bahumat and Tiamat are "Aspects" of them, amd cN be killed.without killing the "Reall" Tiamat and Bahamut who are metaphysical principles. But it leaves room for multiple interpretations of hiw that works. It's well written make believe metaphysics.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

That's the point. According to how it officially works, then, absolutely yes. If Corellon is killed on his home plane, Corellon is dead. Full stop. Dead everywhere. Which is why something like Savage Tides in 3e is a problem. According to the adventure, Demogorgon is dead. As in all the way dead. At least, if you completed the adventure he is. Which means, by canon, Demogorgon should no longer appear in D&D.

But, we ignore that. Totally glossed over.

I would much prefer a true multiverse system where each universe is distinct and unique. Certain individuals appear in various universes, fair enough, but, Krynn Demogorgon is not Greyhawk Demogorgon nor is he Forgotten Realms Demogorgon.

Although, to be fair, I am interested more in how Fizban's is presenting this. It seems, from the tiny snippet I saw here, that they're going to go with idea that the sort of Platonic Ideal of these beings is unreachable. So, it doesn't matter that it's the same critter across all the worlds, none of those are actually the real original thing anyway. It's one way to reconcile inconsistencies.

Well in Fizban’s it’s stated that Dragons at the least have Echos of themselves on different worlds, and are capable of merging with or using their echo’s senses.

 

[Ibrandul]

Yeah, it is weird. I'm not defending this. I do think that Vecna is more of a special case and is similar to Dragons, where he has "variants" in different worlds, maybe something to do with the First World can explain this. However, this is weird and confusing, and does need explaining. I don't think it's been handled well any time in D&D's past. Hopefully WotC can fix this in a future Planescape book.

That one, at least, is easy: 5e lore (such as it is) portrays Vecna as a sort of Kang the Conqueror type who uses chronomancy to hop around the timeline and the multiverse. Here's the Vecna Dossier: "Because Vecna is said to have mastered magic allowing him to travel through time, he can appear in this form [his archlich form prior to Kas's betrayal] even on worlds where his severed hand and eye are already known artifacts."

 

[Parmandur]

That one, at least, is easy: 5e lore (such as it is) portrays Vecna as a sort of Kang the Conqueror type who uses chronomancy to hop around the timeline and the multiverse. Here's the Vecna Dossier: "Because Vecna is said to have mastered magic allowing him to travel through time, he can appear in this form [his archlich form prior to Kas's betrayal] even on worlds where his severed hand and eye are already known artifacts."

I mean, Mordenkainen, Tasha and Bigby are running around in the 5E muktiverse, but everyone everywnamechecjs them in Spells.

 

[SkidAce]

D&D's approach to multiverse has a serious problem. Instead of each universe being unique, you have many universes with these beings that span across them - which means that you get all sorts of conflicting information about these beings.

I consider the highlight a feature, but I understand what you are saying.

 

[teitan]

That's the point. According to how it officially works, then, absolutely yes. If Corellon is killed on his home plane, Corellon is dead. Full stop. Dead everywhere. Which is why something like Savage Tides in 3e is a problem. According to the adventure, Demogorgon is dead. As in all the way dead. At least, if you completed the adventure he is. Which means, by canon, Demogorgon should no longer appear in D&D.

But, we ignore that. Totally glossed over.

I would much prefer a true multiverse system where each universe is distinct and unique. Certain individuals appear in various universes, fair enough, but, Krynn Demogorgon is not Greyhawk Demogorgon nor is he Forgotten Realms Demogorgon.

Although, to be fair, I am interested more in how Fizban's is presenting this. It seems, from the tiny snippet I saw here, that they're going to go with idea that the sort of Platonic Ideal of these beings is unreachable. So, it doesn't matter that it's the same critter across all the worlds, none of those are actually the real original thing anyway. It's one way to reconcile inconsistencies.

That’s because technically back then adventures weren’t canon in Dungeon. The canon adventures were the ones with the setting mastheads on them and technically, for example, in Planescape, Orcus was dead for a very, very long time before he returned as Tenebrous but he was in the FR adventures that in the FR timeline were a decade before Planescape canonically started. Then he returns as Tenebrous and IF you thwarted his resurrection in Dead Gods you altered what was the future canon established in 3e that Orcus is back and now possibly a god. Ditto for Vecna after the Vecna crossover adventure with Planescape and Ravenloft.

 

[James Gasik]

That’s because technically back then adventures weren’t canon in Dungeon. The canon adventures were the ones with the setting mastheads on them and technically, for example, in Planescape, Orcus was dead for a very, very long time before he returned as Tenebrous but he was in the FR adventures that in the FR timeline were a decade before Planescape canonically started. Then he returns as Tenebrous and IF you thwarted his resurrection in Dead Gods you altered what was the future canon established in 3e that Orcus is back and now possibly a god. Ditto for Vecna after the Vecna crossover adventure with Planescape and Ravenloft.

I was just watching a video about the Vecna Trilogy. Die, Vecna, Die! is a truly gonzo adventure.