D&D General The Great Railroad Thread

Sure you can. You just need to layout the different kind of gaming scenarios first, and worry about what kind of labels to assign them much later.

But if the purpose of the topic is to get collective agreement on the exact boundaries of a particular use of terminology (like "railroad"), then it's bound to fail.

You're never going to make any progress. Different people have different nuanced views of what these kinds of things mean. Incessantly trying to get everyone on the same page before you can talk about anything is why online discussions are often so tiresome and useless. Just say what your assumptions are, and then post some conclusions about them. Most people will accept your framing and you can have a useful discussion. The problem comes when people feel like they need to engage with people who don't accept their nuanced take on what a railroad is and therefore there's a effort for the two butting heads to railroad everyone else into his interpretation. Just stop doing that, and then you can make progress. If someone is talking about railroads in a way that you fundamentally don't recognize or agree with, then either take that as a given for purposes of the discussion, or don't engage.

You can't have discussions at all if you insist to getting everyone railroaded into accepting some exacting common definition first.
Except we never have a conversation, some outlines something and someone says "sandbox" or "railroad" and the conversation always devolves to 20 pages of the meaning of the words and how they apply to rpgs.
There may be some conversation going on but it tends to get lost in the noise.
 

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What makes them linear?
The campaign premise. Typically, there is either an occupation or an interest in place or series of events. Perhaps the PCs are law enforcement of a frontier town, or perhaps the PCs are residents of a city in political turmoil, there may be some unexplained phenomena that has become and existential threat to the world the PCs live in. The Players accept that premise and explore it extensively. As opposed to a non-linear game where the premise is a moving target and the players can chose to engage, disengage, reengage the premises as they like.
 

But the core problem is that a novel is plotted. You can't have a plot AND have agency to break the plot. You can maybe have side adventures that are unrelated to the plot, or maybe you can encounter aspects of the plot in a differing order.

When I say more like a novel, that doesn't necessarily mean that there's a predetermined plot already written before you even start. Not even all novelists write that way. It can mean having the skill of pacing the session, and having the tension of a novel. It can mean more complex character interactions, like a novel, which don't have to be pre-plotted. It can even mean having the skill to improvise plot points literally as they're occurring. But it's a question of DM skill, certainly, and those who lack some of those skills have been provided tools in the form of pre-written adventures. But, that's a two-edged sword, as we've seen many of them turn into railroads when the rubber meets the road and people actually run them. But even that is a question of DMs lacking the skills to run an adventure without already knowing what's going to happen, or being unable to improvise when things happen that they don't anticipate and can't deal with.

Sort of. A published adventure has the wrong reputation. That is, something where all the work is done for the GM. Its anything but that. If folks would view them more as a recipe as I noted above and understand they have to cook the meal and their proficiency in kitchen is going to have an impact on the overall result.

I think that's part of the problem too, which is sorta what I was talking about just above. Modules have been written for DMs who want a certain experience but lack the skill to pull it off. They've kind of got training wheels on them, for lack of a better term. But many trad style GMs are happy to keep riding with the training wheels on indefinitely, and don't want to actually figure out how to balance the bicycle without them. I understand why modules are written the way that they are, but GMs who run them just directly as written doesn't really provide me with a great experience. I find modules useful to me when 1) they're interesting to read, so if nothing else, at least I enjoy reading them for its own sake, and 2) if they have interesting characters, situations or other elements that I can use, even if I take it out of the context that it's presented in. But if it's presented without any context, it lacks element #1, and therefore sometimes isn't recognized as an interesting element in the first place.

To continue your metaphor, a module is like a recipe in the sense that it's not just a list of ingredients. It's also the instructions on how the writer thinks you should proceed with the ingredients. Sometimes you take some of the ingredients and sauté them together, then remove them from the pan, put them with other ingredients in a bowl, and then mix them, and then pour the whole thing into a baking pan and bake it, etc. A really good cook who knows the group that he's cooking for can look at that and immediately know, for example, "y'know, I don't like broccoli florets texture here, so let's replace them with chopped broccoli, and we don't like mushrooms, so let's not use those. Chicken isn't as interesting in this recipe to me as shrimp and scallops would be, and what this whole thing needs is some lemon zest and paprika, which the person writing the recipe didn't even think of, etc. etc."

I guess ultimately what I'm saying is that nothing can replace GM experience and skill. There are a lot of guard rails in place to keep unskilled GMs from going completely AWOL, but if you've got all that in place and a GM without a lot of experience and skill, you'll still only get a mediocre game. Nothing replaces real world experience and ability to make something of the material beyond what the writer was able to articulate.
 

From the perspective of the people within the car (and assuming they do not have outside meta knowledge of what a real African Safari is "supposed" to look like)... yes, they are the same thing.

Another way to look at it is that a sandbox adventure becomes a linear adventure after the fact when we look back at what the players did. They ended up following a linear path. :)
So basically the setup and methodology of play don't matter because all games end up delivering a linear sequence of events?

Well, that's certainly a take.
 

When I say more like a novel, that doesn't necessarily mean that there's a predetermined plot already written before you even start. Not even all novelists write that way. It can mean having the skill of pacing the session, and having the tension of a novel. It can mean more complex character interactions, like a novel, which don't have to be pre-plotted. It can even mean having the skill to improvise plot points literally as they're occurring. But it's a question of DM skill, certainly, and those who lack some of those skills have been provided tools in the form of pre-written adventures. But, that's a two-edged sword, as we've seen many of them turn into railroads when the rubber meets the road and people actually run them. But even that is a question of DMs lacking the skills to run an adventure without already knowing what's going to happen, or being unable to improvise when things happen that they don't anticipate and can't deal with.
If you don't mean plotted, then I'm unclear as to what aspects of a novel the game would be attempting to convey.
 

I mean it is not by coincidence, it is by design. The situations are engineered such way that there is only one sensible choice to make. That is what makes it railroady. And I don't think definition of railroading that relies purely on subjective feelings is terribly useful one.
There are no definitions of railroading that are useful because nobody will agree on a single one. As you and I can attest. :)

To put it more plainly, it is not up to the DM or an outsider perspective to determine whether an adventure is a railroad or not, because they aren't the ones playing through it. It's the players for whom a "railroad" matters, because they are the one who are seeing and feeling that their choices are being ignored and thus are being "railroaded". They are the ones feeling the negative effects of the decisions the DM is making.

That being said... I will agree with you to a certain extent in terms of perspective, in that because to me whether something is a railroad or not comes down to whether the players feel they are being railroaded... the "illusion of choice" to me is a completely valid way of playing from the DM's perspective because the players do not know the difference. The players still get to make choices and feel good about their decisions, even if those decisions result in the same thing happening. Basically an extension that also goes into the "fudging die rolls" and "Quantum Ogres" perspective as well.

I personally couldn't care less about the top-down look from other people about how I run my game, I only care about how my players feel. And because every single type of game becomes a 'linear adventure' (or 'linear plot') after the fact... the actual game type used doesn't actually matter. Whether that's an Adventure Path, a Lego Sandbox, an Open Sandbox, or any other so-called type of game. All that actually matters is that my players feel as though they are allowed to make decisions on what to do and that those decisions result in further action. And if they are happy with those further actions, then how it was that I as DM determined what those further actions were doesn't matter. Because if I do my job correctly, they will have no idea.

(The big issue for some other DMs of course are that they might not be skilled enough yet to actually do their job correctly. They might not be able to pull off the magic trick to the satisfaction of their players. But it's thus on them to work to get better at it.)
 

I mean it is not by coincidence, it is by design. The situations are engineered such way that there is only one sensible choice to make. That is what makes it railroady. And I don't think definition of railroading that relies purely on subjective feelings is terribly useful one.
I don't think any other definition is useful. That's always been what railroad means; when players feel like the GM is taking away their agency by fiat. You're reaching for some kind of platonic ideal, which is why your attempt to define a railroad is getting so much pushback. It has little applicability in the real world of real gaming, at least as you've described it.
 


Except we never have a conversation, some outlines something and someone says "sandbox" or "railroad" and the conversation always devolves to 20 pages of the meaning of the words and how they apply to rpgs.
There may be some conversation going on but it tends to get lost in the noise.
Then maybe it's just better to not use those words?
 

Except we never have a conversation, some outlines something and someone says "sandbox" or "railroad" and the conversation always devolves to 20 pages of the meaning of the words and how they apply to rpgs.
There may be some conversation going on but it tends to get lost in the noise.
Yeah, like I said. Everyone doesn't have to railroad everyone else into accepting their assumptions. Just present them and ignore the people who quibble with them. The only reason this noise is generated is because people don't let it go and refuse to engage with off-topic pedantry. I'm certainly as guilty as the next guy.

Of course, sometimes the noise can be interesting in its own right, at least to some degree.
 

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