D&D General The Great Railroad Thread

[Crimson Longinus]

Yes. As many other people have made plain.

If you don't want to see (or can't see) a difference... that's fine. But other people do.

I am not sure it is as plain as you seem to think. So is the argument that railroading takes force to block outcomes? And that framing mono-solution situations is not force thus not railroading? Because sure, there is real difference here, I just am no sure it is terribly meaningful one. In both cases the GM uses their GM powers to ensure that only their predetermined outcome occurs.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Assuming a sandbox is going to have an embedded narrative is a pretty large leap.

Basically, you're saying that Disney World and an African safari are the same thing as long as you never get out of the jeep.

From the perspective of the people within the car (and assuming they do not have outside meta knowledge of what a real African Safari is "supposed" to look like)... yes, they are the same thing.

Another way to look at it is that a sandbox adventure becomes a linear adventure after the fact when we look back at what the players did. They ended up following a linear path.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I am not sure it is as plain as you seem to think. So is the argument that railroading takes force to block outcomes? And that framing mono-solution situations is not force thus not railroading? Because sure, there is real difference here, I just am no sure it is terribly meaningful one. In both cases the GM uses their GM powers to ensure that only their predetermined outcome occurs.

It's from the player's perspective, not the DMs. If they players feel they have no choices to make, then they are being railroaded. If the players feel they do have choices and it just so happens by complete coincidence that the authors of the adventure correctly predicted their choices and wrote further adventures for the DM to use, then it is linear. "Railroads" are about player feelings, which is why the word has a "negative connotation".

 

[payn]

I am not sure it is as plain as you seem to think. So is the argument that railroading takes force to block outcomes? And that framing mono-solution situations is not force thus not railroading? Because sure, there is real difference here, I just am no sure it is terribly meaningful one. In both cases the GM uses their GM powers to ensure that only their predetermined outcome occurs.

That is essentially every RPG dynamic in which a GM presents and the players interact.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I don't quite understand what the definition of "a linear game" is. Because if it is literally linear, from A to B to C etc, no room for deviation or change of the player actions to affect the outcome, I really do not see how it is not a railroad, albeit possibly one the players willingly follow. Or is that the difference? Railroading is defined as the GM using force to prevent the players from deviating from the path, but if on the linear adventure the players never try to deviate from the path then technically such force is not needed?

both railroads and linear adventures have a final destination intended and the path to that destination outlined, the difference is that a railroad is more like an extended sequence of scripted cutscenes where your character is basically a passenger in the story and there was only really one way any given situation will ever be going to turn out, in a linear adventure what you do matters, you might be travelling the same path but the things you do and choose to interact with on the path have impact on how you reach the ending and how it turns out.

frodo is always going to be heading to mt.doom, but he chose to part from the rest of the fellowship, in a linear adventure that choice stands, in a railroad if frodo leaving the party was 'the thing that was meant to happen' then aragorn, legolas, gimli, merry and pippin probably would've shown up before five minutes of being alone with sam having dispatched the orcs and told him 'well better get back on the main quest path road'

 

[Crimson Longinus]

From the perspective of the people within the car (and assuming they do not have outside meta knowledge of what a real African Safari is "supposed" to look like)... yes, they are the same thing.

Another way to look at it is that a sandbox adventure becomes a linear adventure after the fact when we look back at what the players did. They ended up following a linear path.

Yeah, that's just bonkers. Of course any adventure will have taken only one path once it is completed!

It's from the player's perspective, not the DMs. If they players feel they have no choices to make, then they are being railroaded. If the players feel they do have choices and it just so happens by complete coincidence that the authors of the adventure correctly predicted their choices and wrote further adventures for the DM to use, then it is linear. "Railroads" are about player feelings, which is why the word has a "negative connotation".

I mean it is not by coincidence, it is by design. The situations are engineered such way that there is only one sensible choice to make. That is what makes it railroady. And I don't think definition of railroading that relies purely on subjective feelings is terribly useful one.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

That is essentially every RPG dynamic in which a GM presents and the players interact.

It definitely is not. As a GM I often just present situations. I do not at this point know how they will be solved or whether they will be solved. That is for the players to figure out.

 

[payn]

It definitely is not. As a GM I often just present situations. I do not at this point know hoe they will be solved or whether they will be solved. That is for the players to figure out.

Sounds exactly like my linear adventures.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

both railroads and linear adventures have a final destination intended and the path to that destination outlined, the difference is that a railroad is more like an extended sequence of scripted cutscenes where your character is basically a passenger in the story and there was only really one way any given situation will ever be going to turn out, in a linear adventure what you do matters, you might be travelling the same path but the things you do and choose to interact with on the path have impact on how you reach the ending and how it turns out.

frodo is always going to be heading to mt.doom, but he chose to part from the rest of the fellowship, in a linear adventure that choice stands, in a railroad aragorn, legolas, gimli, merry and pippin probably would've shown up before five minutes of being alone with sam having dispatched the orcs and told him 'well better get back on the main quest path road'

But if the path can branch in such a significant way via a player choice, then it is not linear!

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Sounds exactly like my linear adventures.

What makes them linear?