D&D General The Great Railroad Thread

A published linear adventure is merely a sandbox campaign where the author has correctly predicted the choices the players were going to make. :)

If a scene ends and the players decide to 'go do X' because of it-- the next logical step they feel they should take because of what happened... and the adventure path's next scene is that exact thing written out because it is indeed the next "logical step" and the author knew it and assumed most players would follow it... then it's basically a "sandbox adventure" with the player's ultimate choices published beforehand and all the extraneous "missed content" that the players didn't choose removed.

And this is why I don't get hung up on the two "different styles" of adventure. They can pretty much end up being the same exact thing when you have players who follow the narrative.

I don’t know if I fully agree but I like this perspective. There’s no railroading test unless the players do something not in the predicted campaign. Then it depends on the deemed unfairness of the dm handling IMO.
 

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My point is that there "pre-plotted" and "sandbox" don't exhaust the possibilities in RPGing. It's possible to have surprises, twists, arcs, story and the like without pre-plotting. Without an "established narrative" in the sense of a pre-plotted one.
You are absolutely correct but if we cannot establish a common usage for "railroad", "linear", and "sandbox", we are never going make any progress on anything more complex.
 

A published linear adventure is merely a sandbox campaign where the author has correctly predicted the choices the players were going to make. :)

If a scene ends and the players decide to 'go do X' because of it-- the next logical step they feel they should take because of what happened... and the adventure path's next scene is that exact thing written out because it is indeed the next "logical step" and the author knew it and assumed most players would follow it... then it's basically a "sandbox adventure" with the player's ultimate choices published beforehand and all the extraneous "missed content" that the players didn't choose removed.

And this is why I don't get hung up on the two "different styles" of adventure. They can pretty much end up being the same exact thing when you have players who follow the narrative.
Assuming a sandbox is going to have an embedded narrative is a pretty large leap.

Basically, you're saying that Disney World and an African safari are the same thing as long as you never get out of the jeep.
 
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My point was in some cases the information to lead you further along in the AP is contained within one of the nodes a lot of time, and if you ignore or disrupt that node without getting it, you've effectively wandered away from the rest of the AP completely; its hard to see any other actions on the PCs part is going to reconnect with it.

Now, might be that just using the start of the AP as a launch point for entirely different adventures is fine. I'm just noting people writing full length adventure paths are going to rarely supply other routes to continue them, and in some cases the whole premise of the AP makes finding another route from some parts to the others seem unlikely or even illogical. I'm kind of wondering how many people are willing to do the degree of rewrite to get around that--and thinking its not that many for people investing in a full length adventure path in the first place.
I know, and I don't at all disagree. I'm just not sure how else you write that kind of thing to begin with. I tend to design my own adventures as a combination of the 5x5 method and the Fronts method; there's a matrix of things that are expected to happen (mostly NPC instigated) about bunch of different things, and the details are left vague, because I'm never sure what the PCs are going to be most interested in, or of course exactly what they're going to do. A lot of the boxes in the matrix might be borrowed, stolen or at least vaguely resemble something that I read in an Adventure Path once.

I'm not really a fan of running adventure paths for exactly the reason that you note. But I'm also not clear on any other way to write them. My own preparation to run isn't something that I could clean up and make presentable as a salable product.

You could always do site-based adventuring, I suppose, like in the old days, but that market is well served by the modern OSR scene, and the reason that the mainstream trad scene isn't into that is because they were never really satisfied with that type of adventure in the first place. They want the game to feel more like a fantasy novel or movie and less like a fantasy-themed exploratory board game or wargame or whatever... but honestly, the trad playstyle has never cracked the code in terms of how you write adventures in a way that doesn't come across as a railroad. So GMs who are trad style but you don't like railroads have to pretty radically alter how they actually run adventures quite often, or at least be willing to in the event that, as you say, the PCs refuse to do what they're assumed to do for whatever reason.

It's just the risk you always take, I think. Although in my experience, it's not really a very high risk. Most players intuitively understand the social contract of "this is the game I've prepared" so they tend to engage with it.
 

A published linear adventure is merely a sandbox campaign where the author has correctly predicted the choices the players were going to make. :)

If a scene ends and the players decide to 'go do X' because of it-- the next logical step they feel they should take because of what happened... and the adventure path's next scene is that exact thing written out because it is indeed the next "logical step" and the author knew it and assumed most players would follow it... then it's basically a "sandbox adventure" with the player's ultimate choices published beforehand and all the extraneous "missed content" that the players didn't choose removed.

And this is why I don't get hung up on the two "different styles" of adventure. They can pretty much end up being the same exact thing when you have players who follow the narrative.
Again this may be true but not useful in establishing a taxonomy.
 

You are absolutely correct but if we cannot establish a common usage for "railroad", "linear", and "sandbox", we are never going make any progress on anything more complex.
Sure you can. You just need to layout the different kind of gaming scenarios first, and worry about what kind of labels to assign them much later.

But if the purpose of the topic is to get collective agreement on the exact boundaries of a particular use of terminology (like "railroad"), then it's bound to fail.
 

A published linear adventure is merely a sandbox campaign where the author has correctly predicted the choices the players were going to make. :)

If a scene ends and the players decide to 'go do X' because of it-- the next logical step they feel they should take because of what happened... and the adventure path's next scene is that exact thing written out because it is indeed the next "logical step" and the author knew it and assumed most players would follow it... then it's basically a "sandbox adventure" with the player's ultimate choices published beforehand and all the extraneous "missed content" that the players didn't choose removed.

And this is why I don't get hung up on the two "different styles" of adventure. They can pretty much end up being the same exact thing when you have players who follow the narrative.

No. Because if the GM frames events in such way, that there is always only the one sensible thing to do, it is still a railroad, just more elegantly done than one where the GM uses force to block outcomes. To avoid this the situations should be more open ended, without one obvious outcome. Basically if you can run it with several different groups of players and they all end up making the roughly same choices leading to the same outcomes it is probably a railroad.
 

A published linear adventure is merely a sandbox campaign where the author has correctly predicted the choices the players were going to make. :)

If a scene ends and the players decide to 'go do X' because of it-- the next logical step they feel they should take because of what happened... and the adventure path's next scene is that exact thing written out because it is indeed the next "logical step" and the author knew it and assumed most players would follow it... then it's basically a "sandbox adventure" with the player's ultimate choices published beforehand and all the extraneous "missed content" that the players didn't choose removed.

And this is why I don't get hung up on the two "different styles" of adventure. They can pretty much end up being the same exact thing when you have players who follow the narrative.
But that completely misses the point. A railroad isn't a railroad until the DM tries to force the players back on to the track when they're doing something else. In my opinion, you can't write a railroad, unless you explicitly write "don't let the players do this, even if they really want to" as part of the adventure. Any decent DM knows that the predicted outline of a written adventure has to infer some flexibility and other things going on that the DM will have to do to actually run the adventure out in the real world. He can't predict everything that every group will do.

The problem isn't the product, mostly, the problem is the DM who can't go off the track without becoming lost, hapless and unable to function.
 

You could always do site-based adventuring, I suppose, like in the old days, but that market is well served by the modern OSR scene, and the reason that the mainstream trad scene isn't into that is because they were never really satisfied with that type of adventure in the first place. They want the game to feel more like a fantasy novel or movie and less like a fantasy-themed exploratory board game or wargame or whatever... but honestly, the trad playstyle has never cracked the code in terms of how you write adventures in a way that doesn't come across as a railroad. So GMs who are trad style but you don't like railroads have to pretty radically alter how they actually run adventures quite often, or at least be willing to in the event that, as you say, the PCs refuse to do what they're assumed to do for whatever reason.
Trad hasn't cracked the code because it's impossible. You can't simultaneously experience a fantasy novel AND simultaneously have full agency to explore the setting.

Players who want to experience a story have to abandon some agency. Players who want full agency over exploration have to abandon the idea of an experienced plot structure.
 

You are absolutely correct but if we cannot establish a common usage for "railroad", "linear", and "sandbox", we are never going make any progress on anything more complex.
You're never going to make any progress. Different people have different nuanced views of what these kinds of things mean. Incessantly trying to get everyone on the same page before you can talk about anything is why online discussions are often so tiresome and useless. Just say what your assumptions are, and then post some conclusions about them. Most people will accept your framing and you can have a useful discussion. The problem comes when people feel like they need to engage with people who don't accept their nuanced take on what a railroad is and therefore there's a effort for the two butting heads to railroad everyone else into his interpretation. Just stop doing that, and then you can make progress. If someone is talking about railroads in a way that you fundamentally don't recognize or agree with, then either take that as a given for purposes of the discussion, or don't engage.

You can't have discussions at all if you insist to getting everyone railroaded into accepting some exacting common definition first.
 

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