D&D General The Great Railroad Thread

[EzekielRaiden]

In my decades of playing RPGs, this has happened once, (aside some horror style scenarios where “everyone dies horribly in the end” is the point,) and it was at the very end of the campaign at the final confrontation where one PC decided to join the enemy. It might have happened in some games we played as kids and I just don’t remember. But it definitely is not common and your experience seems utterly bizarre to me.

Oh, it's been, as noted, quite common. And in three out of those five cases, I explicitly warned the GM in question that this was a concern. Two of those were GMs I knew beforehand, so my warning might be heeded. It wasn't, either time, but I gave it a go.* The third was someone I did not know well beforehand, so I tried to warn as gently as I possibly could, and the answer I got convinced me that I'd better just keep my mouth shut and enjoy the game while it lasted. After that, I didn't bother warning GMs anymore, because whether I knew them well or not made no difference in whether a TPK was going to happen, so what's the point?

Doubly sucks because I tried very hard in every case to be as actively support-heavy and group-helpful as I could, without completely sacrificing all personal interest in my characters. Each time, it made no difference.

Of course, it probably hasn't helped that, again in my experience, 5e GMs absolutely adore dragging out the levelling process to no end, as in, not hitting 2nd level until the 4th or 5th session, and not hitting 3rd until several sessions after that. This applied both to the groups that failed due to TPKs and the groups that failed for other reasons.

Hussar is the only 5e GM I've ever had who has actually run levels at the rate they're designed to happen.

*The first time, the GM was supremely confident we were basically unkillable, because his other party had surprised him with their survivability. So we got shafted. The second time, different GM, I was slightly more insistent, but the GM assured me he had everything under control and I shouldn't worry so much. We then got that TPK two weeks later, despite my efforts to the contrary.

 

[AnotherGuy]

TPKs are a massive downer and put a terrible black cloud over the game for every group I've ever interacted with that has had one.

TPKs kill campaigns, consistently, in my personal experience.

As a gamist and a person who enjoys some grittiness I feel a True TPK (as you define it) should be an available option on the table but like @pemerton I do not believe it indicates an end of a campaign.
As a fan of the players and their characters I will likely exhaust other possible loss conditions beforehand, as long as they make sense in the fiction, and I would certainly consider table input.

However, should a True TPK come to pass, the table decides way forward if the storyline is to continue (I would let the players vote solely on this)
i) Resurrected years later
ii) New Heroes

A True TPK at my table would not see a disbanding of the players.
We're mates, this is a game, and players ribbing other players for the Loss is part of the endless fun we have at the table.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

As a gamist and a person who enjoys some grittiness I feel a True TPK (as you define it) should be an available option on the table but like @pemerton I do not believe it indicates an end of a campaign.
As a fan of the players and their characters I will likely exhaust other possible loss conditions beforehand, as long as they make sense in the fiction, and I would certainly consider table input.

However, should a True TPK come to pass, the table decides way forward if the storyline is to continue (I would let the players vote solely on this)
i) Resurrected years later
ii) New Heroes

A True TPK at my table would not see a disbanding of the players.
We're mates, this is a game, and players ribbing other players for the Loss is part of the endless fun we have at the table.

How long has your group been playing together?

In every one of these cases, this was the first time these players were playing together. As stated, some of them were (varyingly distant) friends I had already had for other reasons, but they were not "gaming friends", they were "people I met multiple years ago and have talked with several times before".

I am given to understand that, especially in the era of 5th edition, "fresh group just assembled" is dramatically more common than "group that has been gaming together for years and years."

 

[Gimby]

As a gamist and a person who enjoys some grittiness I feel a True TPK (as you define it) should be an available option on the table but like @pemerton I do not believe it indicates an end of a campaign.
As a fan of the players and their characters I will likely exhaust other possible loss conditions beforehand, as long as they make sense in the fiction, and I would certainly consider table input.

However, should a True TPK come to pass, the table decides way forward if the storyline is to continue (I would let the players vote solely on this)
i) Resurrected years later
ii) New Heroes

A True TPK at my table would not see a disbanding of the players.
We're mates, this is a game, and players ribbing other players for the Loss is part of the endless fun we have at the table.

I think that's basically the point - a TPK doesn't have to kill a campaign - there are lots of plausible outs for this that let a game keep going, but in @EzekielRaiden 's experience, TPKS do kill campaigns. I'll attest to that too - I've seen it happen. I've also seen it not happen after a campaign, but I'd agree that it's possible - likely, even, from my experience.

 

[Mort]

Do they?

I've literally never seen that. A true TPK is a death sentence for a campaign. I've seen that several times personally, and too many times to count secondhand. Never once seen the thing you describe--except, secondhand, in sandbox play. TPKs are a massive downer and put a terrible black cloud over the game for every group I've ever interacted with that has had one.

I suppose it's very group dependant. I was also thinking of the specific situation where the group REALLY wants to finish an adventure or module. The one time this occurred to my group it was a 3.5 campaign group was 14th level and suffered a 4 out of 5 PC loss. 3 made new characters because they wanted to try something new, one was brought back and the group moved forward.

Well. See above. That's exactly what has happened in multiple games I've been in. We got 6-8 weeks in, DM thought we were invincible and threw stupidly brokenly awful combats at us, we TPK'd, group disbanded. Didn't matter if it was longtime friends or random strangers or a mix of the two. TPKs kill campaigns, consistently, in my personal experience.

(And, as a note? 6-8 weeks is an optimistic number. Some didn't make it past five weeks.)

I've been gaming with mostly the same people for a LONG time so perhaps experience isn't dispositive. Also, I have plenty of DM horror stories but, thankfully, mostly from even longer ago - current memories are all fond ones. I suspect if a TPK were to happen in my current group (when I'm a player, we now have a rotating DM structure), which is unlikely, we'd just talk it out and move on.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I suppose it's very group dependant. I was also thinking of the specific situation where the group REALLY wants to finish an adventure or module. The one time this occurred to my group it was a 3.5 campaign group was 14th level and suffered a 4 out of 5 PC loss. 3 made new characters because they wanted to try something new, one was brought back and the group moved forward.



I've been gaming with mostly the same people for a LONG time so perhaps experience isn't dispositive. Also, I have plenty of DM horror stories but, thankfully, mostly from even longer ago - current memories are all fond ones. I suspect if a TPK were to happen in my current group (when I'm a player, we now have a rotating DM structure), which is unlikely, we'd just talk it out and move on.

All I can say is, I never had this experience with 3e or 4e.

5e? I have had it, as stated, pretty consistently. Hussar's group is the only one I've been in that hasn't suffered this or some other problem that ended the campaign in relatively short order.

There's a reason I am pretty critical of the 5.0 DMG, and why I found the rather sudden turnaround on its quality (folks going from vociferously defending it as one of the best ever written to "Ugh, everyone has always known it's bad, can you stop talking about it") bitterly hilarious.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I am given to understand that, especially in the era of 5th edition, "fresh group just assembled" is dramatically more common than "group that has been gaming together for years and years."

Possibly. I suspect the older generation who are more experienced with loss are likely able to deal with it better.

How long has your group been playing together?

51 year old, been playing all his life, 15+ years with me, we have a larger friend circle
49 year old, been playing all his life, 25+ years with me, we have a larger friend circle
48 year old, recently joined us after a 20-year absence, he's an old friend from early days school
33 year old, started playing 5 years ago, we have a larger friend circle
30+ year old, been playing on-and-off, joined us 3 years ago - even though we do not see him outside the hobby (just a matter of time), I'd consider him a friend.

In every one of these cases, this was the first time these players were playing together. As stated, some of them were (varyingly distant) friends I had already had for other reasons, but they were not "gaming friends", they were "people I met multiple years ago and have talked with several times before".

It will depend I suspect on how it was handled by the GM. It can be a tricky thing to negotiate I will admit especially with hobby friends, acquaintances and strangers. I have made plenty mistakes in the past, I make many less so these days but I'm not infallible.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

All I can say is, I never had this experience with 3e or 4e.

5e? I have had it, as stated, pretty consistently. Hussar's group is the only one I've been in that hasn't suffered this or some other problem that ended the campaign in relatively short order.

There's a reason I am pretty critical of the 5.0 DMG, and why I found the rather sudden turnaround on its quality (folks going from vociferously defending it as one of the best ever written to "Ugh, everyone has always known it's bad, can you stop talking about it") bitterly hilarious.

So my experience is that past fourth level 5e characters are pretty much unkillable, and certainly are not even close of any sort of genuine danger if using 2014 encounter building guidelines, you can comfortably go way past deadly. Yeah, before that they are somewhat more fragile, but you're supposed to go trough the early levels pretty quickly. At what levels did these TPKs happen?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Possibly. I suspect the older generation who are more experienced with loss are likely able to deal with it better.


51 year old, been playing all his life, 15+ years with me, we have a larger friend circle
49 year old, been playing all his life, 25+ years with me, we have a larger friend circle
48 year old, recently joined us after a 20-year absence, he's an old friend from early days school
33 year old, started playing 5 years ago, we have a larger friend circle
30+ year old, been playing on-and-off, joined us 3 years ago - even though we do not see him outside the hobby (just a matter of time), I'd consider him a friend.


It will depend I suspect on how it was handled by the GM. It can be a tricky thing to negotiate I will admit especially with hobby friends, acquaintances and strangers. I have made plenty mistakes in the past, I make many less so these days but I'm not infallible.

"Hobby friends" would be a good descriptor of the two groups this happened to where all the players were people I knew beforehand. Strangers for the rest. So...yeah. Let's just say I have seen a consistent pattern (broken only by Hussar!) of GMs who did not handle this sort of thing well, at all. (Well, I guess technically Hussar could still follow the pattern if we get a TPK, since we haven't had one...but I really really doubt he would. He's been very supportive.)

 

[EzekielRaiden]

So my experience is that past fourth level 5e characters are pretty much unkillable, and certainly are not even close of any sort of genuine danger if using 2014 encounter building guidelines, you can comfortably go way past deadly. Yeah, before that they are somewhat more fragile, but you're supposed to go trough the early levels pretty quickly. At what levels did these TPKs happen?

Level 1 or 2 for most, level 3 for one. Other than with Hussar's group, I have never seen a 5e game that started out at level 1 and actually reached level 4--ever. TPKs, gross GM misbehavior, group just losing interest and jumping ship, or other similar issues have always killed it before level 4 could happen.

As noted, I am aware that the levelling guidelines functionally say "reach level 2 at the end of the first session, level 3 at the end of the third, and roughly +1 every four sessions therefater". Hussar's group is literally the only one that has ever followed anything like that pace. All of the others, it's taken at least three sessions to reach level 2. Only one--the one that actually hit 8 weeks--has reached level 3. None have had the opportunity to reach 4, so I couldn't say how long that would take, but if the pattern holds...we'd be lucky to level up in several months.

No group that has started at a higher level has lasted long enough to gain another, in my experience. (Again, Hussar being the sole exception, though that was only because I joined late; everyone else had started at 1st.)