D&D General The Great Railroad Thread

[AbdulAlhazred]

Gotcha. Yeap, what they really meant is if you are lucky and survive to a level high enough, your character can be like Conan. You have to earn it though; blah. Im definitely over the skill play survival sim D&D. Or I should say that is a one shot night type stuff for me. If im gonna play a campaign, I want a capable character actually like Conan for most if not all of it.

I didn't have too much problem with some degree of earning it, or growing into it, but that process was less like 'the birth of a hero' and more like grinding. I think 5e made some progress vs say 2e there, but 4e did one thing well for us. Your character might be a small local hero at level 1, but it felt like playing a hero.

 

[zarionofarabel]

Gotcha. Yeap, what they really meant is if you are lucky and survive to a level high enough, your character can be like Conan. You have to earn it though; blah. Im definitely over the skill play survival sim D&D. Or I should say that is a one shot night type stuff for me. If im gonna play a campaign, I want a capable character actually like Conan for most if not all of it.

I'm with you on that. I got over the zero to hero thing long ago. I want to play a PC that is competent in the main "thing(s)" that they are expected to be skilled at doing. I find it kind of funny that the zero to hero thing is still so prevalent in TTRPGs as it is much less a feature of other media like TV shows or movies. In most other media the main characters (who would be the PCs in a TTRPG) are at least competent. Like, all of the Avengers and Justin League heroes have their origin stories, but even in their origin stories they are at least competent if not already a cut above the rest. I want to be a Big Damn Hero doing Big Damn Hero things! I don't want to spend a measurable amount of the campaign trying to obtain my Big Damn Hero status.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I'm with you on that. I got over the zero to hero thing long ago. I want to play a PC that is competent in the main "thing(s)" that they are expected to be skilled at doing. I find it kind of funny that the zero to hero thing is still so prevalent in TTRPGs as it is much less a feature of other media like TV shows or movies. In most other media the main characters (who would be the PCs in a TTRPG) are at least competent. Like, all of the Avengers and Justin League heroes have their origin stories, but even in their origin stories they are at least competent if not already a cut above the rest. I want to be a Big Damn Hero doing Big Damn Hero things! I don't want to spend a measurable amount of the campaign trying to obtain my Big Damn Hero status.

Its mostly only pronounced in level-based games, because people are fixated on starting at 1st level. Point distribution games and others that don't deal with levels are much more likely to at least present a strong option toward initial heroic competence (and some of them even default toward it).

 

[Mort]

Its mostly only pronounced in level-based games, because people are fixated on starting at 1st level. Point distribution games and others that don't deal with levels are much more likely to at least present a strong option toward initial heroic competence (and some of them even default toward it).

In GURPS, most DMs I've seen tend to start at 100 points, which represents just shy of heroic - but can get there pretty quick.

Then again, I've only had 1 GURPS campaign last more than a few months. Where D&D campaigns, I've run or been in last years.

 

[Thomas Shey]

In GURPS, most DMs I've seen tend to start at 100 points, which represents just shy of heroic - but can get there pretty quick.

Then again, I've only had 1 GURPS campaign last more than a few months. Where D&D campaigns, I've run or been in last years.

I was thinking of typical heroic starts in non-superheroic Hero, but the principal is the same.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I'm with you on that. I got over the zero to hero thing long ago. I want to play a PC that is competent in the main "thing(s)" that they are expected to be skilled at doing. I find it kind of funny that the zero to hero thing is still so prevalent in TTRPGs as it is much less a feature of other media like TV shows or movies. In most other media the main characters (who would be the PCs in a TTRPG) are at least competent. Like, all of the Avengers and Justin League heroes have their origin stories, but even in their origin stories they are at least competent if not already a cut above the rest. I want to be a Big Damn Hero doing Big Damn Hero things! I don't want to spend a measurable amount of the campaign trying to obtain my Big Damn Hero status.

Its mostly only pronounced in level-based games, because people are fixated on starting at 1st level. Point distribution games and others that don't deal with levels are much more likely to at least present a strong option toward initial heroic competence (and some of them even default toward it).

Zero to hero is the point of having a level based game. I certainly don't always want that, but there are games other than D&D. Now you of course can start at a higher level in D&D too, but the basic idea that the levels mean significant increase of power is a fundamental building block of the game and it would be a mistake to get rid of that.

 

[zarionofarabel]

Zero to hero is the point of having a level based game. I certainly don't always want that, but there are games other than D&D. Now you of course can start at a higher level in D&D too, but the basic idea that the levels mean significant increase of power is a fundamental building block of the game and it would be a mistake to get rid of that.

Never said it should be gotten rid of. It's totally not my thing, but is obviously loved by many as it is prevalent within the hobby. I just think it's one of the interesting quirks of the TTRPG hobby, in that it is far less prevalent in other forms of media. Not that zero to hero doesn't exist in movies or TV, as it does, it's just not as prevalent as it is within TTRPG space. I also prefer "sideways" PC growth over "upwards" PC growth as that too is often featured far more in non-TTRPG media. Like I said, I like to start out as Conan, or Iron Man, or Judge Dredd. I don't want to play out the training montage that got my PC to that level of capability, that's what the training montage is for.

 

[payn]

I'm with you on that. I got over the zero to hero thing long ago. I want to play a PC that is competent in the main "thing(s)" that they are expected to be skilled at doing. I find it kind of funny that the zero to hero thing is still so prevalent in TTRPGs as it is much less a feature of other media like TV shows or movies. In most other media the main characters (who would be the PCs in a TTRPG) are at least competent. Like, all of the Avengers and Justin League heroes have their origin stories, but even in their origin stories they are at least competent if not already a cut above the rest. I want to be a Big Damn Hero doing Big Damn Hero things! I don't want to spend a measurable amount of the campaign trying to obtain my Big Damn Hero status.

Zero to hero is the point of having a level based game. I certainly don't always want that, but there are games other than D&D. Now you of course can start at a higher level in D&D too, but the basic idea that the levels mean significant increase of power is a fundamental building block of the game and it would be a mistake to get rid of that.

Since we got a similar line of discussion over in 6E+ thread, I think nailing the right formula for the zero to hero is the trick. 5E, for instance, has pretty low key and vulnerable levels 1 and 2. This is so folks can have that surviving by the skin of their teeth and becoming a capable hero thing. For some thats just the right amount because they can go by quickly as a campaign sets up. For others, its a pain becasue they dont want to experience those levels everytime they start a new campaign (but many players and GMs only want to start at level 1!). At the other end of the leveling spectrum, is the gonzo fantasy. God like spells, fighters surviving orbit reentry falls to the planet, etc.. Some folks want to play that, and they dont want to wait until level 10+ since, as mentioned folks want to start at the beginning and most games dont make it past 10 so may never actually get there anyways.

Im not sure the best formula though i think its less levels, to the chagrin of folks who want 30 level D&D, I just dont ever see that in the cards anymore in face of the amount of folks that barely get past 10.

 

[zarionofarabel]

Since we got a similar line of discussion over in 6E+ thread, I think nailing the right formula for the zero to hero is the trick. 5E, for instance, has pretty low key and vulnerable levels 1 and 2. This is so folks can have that surviving by the skin of their teeth and becoming a capable hero thing. For some thats just the right amount because they can go by quickly as a campaign sets up. For others, its a pain becasue they dont want to experience those levels everytime they start a new campaign (but many players and GMs only want to start at level 1!). At the other end of the leveling spectrum, is the gonzo fantasy. God like spells, fighters surviving orbit reentry falls to the planet, etc.. Some folks want to play that, and they dont want to wait until level 10+ since, as mentioned folks want to start at the beginning and most games dont make it past 10 so may never actually get there anyways.

Im not sure the best formula though i think its less levels, to the chagrin of folks who want 30 level D&D, I just dont ever see that in the cards anymore in face of the amount of folks that barely get past 10.

Eons ago I remember an AD&D 2e game I ran, where the players convinced me to the let them start out with XP for the fighter player to be 15th level. I think the Thief was 18th or 20th level. It was fun for a few sessions, until the Wizard accidentally wiped out an entire village over a misunderstanding with an innocent peasant NPC, and I decided the party would be hunted by everyone in the realm as a result. The game ended shortly after that. High level gaming in D&D can be rough.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Zero to hero is the point of having a level based game. I certainly don't always want that, but there are games other than D&D. Now you of course can start at a higher level in D&D too, but the basic idea that the levels mean significant increase of power is a fundamental building block of the game and it would be a mistake to get rid of that.

Yeah, but there's nothing about a level based game that mandates that 1 is the default starting point. Its just such a tradition people have trouble getting past it both in the design, and in application in the field. In other sorts of approaches it doesn't have the baked-in history that every game out there carries from D&D.