D&D General The Great Railroad Thread

Tangential to the railroading, but
RE: zero to hero

Yes, it's not exactly common to see such power progression (or, frankly, much power progression at all) outside of RPGs. Is that a bad thing? Raising a character from nothing to your desired build is, like, fun.

I suspect the number of people who find starting from "nothing" isn't as large as you imply here.

I'd say an interesting area of design is introducing some sort of randomization to progression, sort of like "get three options, pick one" so common in modern roguelikes (I'm not going to delve into an asinine argument about -like and -lite distinction) to make players think of their feet rather than planning every detail of their build in advance.

Though in matter of degree not specifics, the BRP system has had semi-random progression (in exactly when and how much it happened with a given skill) for a long time. Its far from a non-controversial mechanic in how its received.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Though in matter of degree not specifics, the BRP system has had semi-random progression (in exactly when and how much it happened with a given skill) for a long time. Its far from a non-controversial mechanic in how its received.
Oh for sure. I wouldn't imagine players being particularly happy. It can easily be very clumsy.

Randomizing how much progression you get is frustration city, but I'm thinking more about horizontal (or even orthogonal, as in, solving a different problem) options

Within the existing dnd framework, powerful, mechanics-heavy magic items could be an interesting way to structure progression alongside normal (or slowed down) XP gain could be a way to achieve similar results.
 

Oh for sure. I wouldn't imagine players being particularly happy. It can easily be very clumsy.

Randomizing how much progression you get is frustration city, but I'm thinking more about horizontal (or even orthogonal, as in, solving a different problem) options

The problem is, even if you manage to get the horizontal options all theoretically even in value, the number of players who will see it that way isn't liable to be huge, and will probably resent being forced into just taking what the die roll gives them.
 

Yes, it's not exactly common to see such power progression (or, frankly, much power progression at all) outside of RPGs. Is that a bad thing? Raising a character from nothing to your desired build is, like, fun.
Other games don't really have such "rankings".
I'd say an interesting area of design is introducing some sort of randomization to progression, sort of like "get three options, pick one" so common in modern roguelikes (I'm not going to delve into an asinine argument about -like and -lite distinction) to make players think of their feet rather than planning every detail of their build in advance.
Are you saying give out abilities at random? Not allowing the players to pick and choose them?
 

Other games don't really have such "rankings".

Are you saying give out abilities at random? Not allowing the players to pick and choose them?
No, they can pick and choose from a limited set of random options.

As the crudest example, you level up and roll for 3 random classes. Maybe on a big table, maybe on three smaller ones like martial/arcane/divine. Pick one, gain a level in that class. It would force players to seek some interesting synergies, I believe

This would also probably dampen 5e's superhero-ish feel because on average multiclassing is... bad
 

8. Now consider that the PCs have pissed off someone important, who hires an assassin to target them. The fact that this assassin will find them, follow them and "appear out of nowhere as they try to sleep" feels less contrived, because of the in-game rationale for the assassin to a) follow them b) not likely be seen, c) attack them, and d) do so as they are resting .

This is not Railroading. This is simply an event that happens in the game.

This is classic player “anything I don’t like is Railroading”.

A lot of players would make the demand that their characters must have a “chance” to detect the assassins. Again, this is just meatgaming. There is no reason the PC should get a chance. Even an average sneaky NPC can find and follow the PCs without walking right up to the PCs.

Even more so with magic, it is hard for the PCs to hide from trackers. Even more, if they stick to the by-the-book rules and things like magic items. There are tons of holes that can be exploited.

And easy one is ‘speaking with the dead’, as there is no by-the-book magic way to block that. But the average player will never think of that.
 

Now consider that the PCs have pissed off someone important, who hires an assassin to target them. The fact that this assassin will find them, follow them and "appear out of nowhere as they try to sleep" feels less contrived, because of the in-game rationale for the assassin to a) follow them b) not likely be seen, c) attack them, and d) do so as they are resting .

This is not Railroading. This is simply an event that happens in the game.
Anything can be "an event that happens in the game". That doesn't tell us whether or not it is railroading.
 

Anything can be "an event that happens in the game". That doesn't tell us whether or not it is railroading.
In fact, all the stated description does is avoid the already-mentioned clumsy GMing. Nothing new has been added here.

A lot of players would make the demand that their characters must have a “chance” to detect the assassins. Again, this is just meatgaming. There is no reason the PC should get a chance. Even an average sneaky NPC can find and follow the PCs without walking right up to the PCs.
I mean, why shouldn't there be a chance?

By this standard, anyone who ever talks about their attack bonus is "metagaming" because they're talking about the game rules. The reason the players get given a chance to do things is because they're playing a game, and thus they want to actually participate, rather than having things simply declared at them until the GM feels like stopping.

Or, if you'll allow me to turn this around: Wouldn't you say that the party's enemies should have a chance to detect them, if they're the ones attempting to attack?

And if so, aren't you engaging in metagaming by unfairly giving the NPCs chances the players never get?
 

Some novels are well written. Some novels are poorly written. All novels, though, are written; and all (or near enough to all) aspire to be well written, or, at least, engaging to the reader. The novel that sets out to be boring, a bad read, poorly written, etc is a pretty rare exception.

RPGing is a leisure activity, a pastime. For most RPGers, the "story" - the shared fiction - is an important part of what makes it an attractive pastime. So, the quality of that fiction is not an irrelevant consideration. RPGing is also a participatory pastime in a way that reading a novel is not. So, the quality of that participation is not an irrelevant consideration either.

The two also interact, in at least this way: player participation in RPGing heavily shapes how they "receive" the fiction, and hence what makes the fiction good or bad. For instance, players - as an audience - are unlikely to experience an epic NPC backstory and character arc in the way that they would experience that character's arc in the reading of a novel. So even if it would be good fiction in a novel, it may not be good fiction in a RPG, for the player audience. To make a similar (perhaps the same) point slightly differently - the participatory structure of a RPG means that the protagonists in the fiction, if their exploits are to be enjoyed by the player audience, must typically if not always be the PCs.

There are ways, in RPGing, to achieve good fiction together with, and within the constraints that are generated by, participation. Those different ways will appeal to different people, who have different expectations both for their fiction and their participation.

The most egregious railroading, in my view, is railroading that blocks or negates or undoes participation in the service of poor or trite fiction. Yet this seems to be surprisingly common!
 

I mean, why shouldn't there be a chance?
A lot of players are influenced by Movies, TV shows and most of all video games : they think there should always be a "Cool Cut Scene " where they the player is given an explanation of everything

Then the player can have their PC "check to see if we are being followed" for no reason while they snicker.

By this standard, anyone who ever talks about their attack bonus is "metagaming" because they're talking about the game rules. The reason the players get given a chance to do things is because they're playing a game, and thus they want to actually participate, rather than having things simply declared at them until the GM feels like stopping.

Or, if you'll allow me to turn this around: Wouldn't you say that the party's enemies should have a chance to detect them, if they're the ones attempting to attack?

And if so, aren't you engaging in metagaming by unfairly giving the NPCs chances the players never get?

I do agree just fine if the players want to play the game intelligently and take intelligent action. For example, if they randomly want to check if they are being followed or even better do a maneuver to shake a tail.

My problem would come in where the PCs just endless goof around, make noise and let everyone within a mile know where they are at all times...and make no effort to do anything intelligent. But if the DM says OOC "there is an assassin after you guys", the players will Cheat and say "Oh, um, my character makes a check to see if there is anyone following us....um, for no reason, snick snicker".
 

Remove ads

Top