The "I Didn't Comment in Another Thread" Thread

[prabe]

I believe it's pronounced Grog-hawk. The "nard" is silent

Well, French.

 

[trappedslider]

 

[Gradine]

The thing that bothers me is Section 7(b)(i), which allows WOTC to terminate OGL 1.2 with a licensee without any notice or opportunity to cure or notice if the licensee's works include material that is "harmful, discriminatory, illegal, obscene, or harassing," or the licensee "engage
in conduct that is harmful, discriminatory, illegal, obscene, or harassing." WOTC has the "sole right to decide what conduct or content is hateful," and the licensee agrees not to challenge any determination. Is gender affirming care obscene? Discriminatory? A critic would say it is "harmful." Would you trust that guy to decide, unilaterally with no ability to challenge the ruling, what is harmful, discriminatory, or obscene? I sure don't.

On the other hand, many people who published works under the OGL 1.0 are no longer with us. When (not if) they deauthorize the 1.0 OGL, all of those works will be lost in time, like tears in rain, with no authority to reissue them.[/S]

I get the issue in principle, but not in practice. And one thing I've learned on the front lines is that the latter often undervalued but more important in both the short and long term. D&D had (an honest attempt at) gender-inclusive language in 2014. So forgive if I find the idea that they'll pull a 180 a decade in the future to shut down a 3PP more than a little far-fetched. Same with sex-work, another issue I've seen crop up despite D&D having former sex workers as brand ambassadors in the past. I do think, however, that the language in that clause does need to be lightened some. I'd press for an allowance to appeal. And to remove the term "obscene" from the list.

My favorite "tears in rain" fact is that it's the only film monologue to have its own english-language Wikipedia article (and most of the other monologues with their own pages are from plays, poetry, stand-up, and that time Clint Eastwood yelled at a chair)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Stop insisting that Little Caesars deserves a Michelin star.

You are allowed to enjoy bad things.

You don't need to lie to yourself and everyone else about how good they are.

 

[Cadence]

I get the issue in principle, but not in practice. And one thing I've learned on the front lines is that the latter often undervalued but more important in both the short and long term. D&D had (an honest attempt at) gender-inclusive language in 2014. So forgive if I find the idea that they'll pull a 180 a decade in the future to shut down a 3PP more than a little far-fetched. Same with sex-work, another issue I've seen crop up despite D&D having former sex workers as brand ambassadors in the past. I do think, however, that the language in that clause does need to be lightened some. I'd press for an allowance to appeal. And to remove the term "obscene" from the list.

My favorite "tears in rain" fact is that it's the only film monologue to have its own english-language Wikipedia article (and most of the other monologues with their own pages are from plays, poetry, stand-up, and that time Clint Eastwood yelled at a chair)

I wonder how many school and public libraries in <insert states> have D&D books or sponsor D&D games or clubs. What is WotC's reaction if <insert states' governors and/or allied media outlets> decide that the next easy batch of media attention is going after D&D's being accepting of <insert something we like>? Or linking D&D to what is in a 2.0 approved book (and thus meeting Hasbro's standards) that deals respectfully and up front with <insert something we like>? I'd like to think that Hasbro would tell such a state to shove off and would offer free books to kids their instead of nuking that material. Is it worth risking without the ability to appeal?

Similarly, how big of a market is China? Will Hasbro cut some products off if the choice is losing the entire market for movies and video games if they don't?

 

[Scribe]

 

[Ryujin]

Is it awful that I want this OGL nonsense to work out well in the end? Like... I like Dungeons & Dragons. But there definitely seems to be a certain eagerness to watch Wizards implode from this; and I don't really think that's a good thing.

If the only difference between between the OGL 1.0 and OGL 2.0 is "this is exactly the same, except Nazis can naughty word off"... what's the problem?

I'm just wondering what Peter Adkison thinks of all this mess. Is he watching in terror as the company he built gets torn apart, online, or is he swimming in his cash like Scrooge McDuck and chortling to himself? Something in between? I've got one degree of separation from him, in a couple of different ways, but don't have the guts to ask.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Similarly, how big of a market is China?

Close to non-existent, I think.

 

[Cadence]

Close to non-existent, I think.

Is it important for movies and video games?

 

[Asisreo]

Why did you make me do that?

I am now a little sadder, and a lot stupider, from learning about the "controversy."

Tbf, the fact that pink floyd went back in time to change their album cover just to appeal to "them" is an egregious violation of time travel laws.

You'd think after the Madela and Berenstein bear incident, time travelers would be kept in check.

Never trusted them, anyways. The fact that they never showed up to Stephen Hawking's party was kinda a d-move.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Tbf, the fact that pink floyd went back in time to change their album cover just to appeal to "them" is an egregious violation of time travel laws.

You'd think after the Madela and Berenstein bear incident, time travelers would be kept in check.

Never trusted them, anyways. The fact that they never showed up to Stephen Hawking's party was kinda a d-move.

Deep cut. Love it!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Is it important for movies and video games?

Decreasingly so.

Since the pandemic, only one new US movie has gotten a scheduled release in China, as I recall, and that just happened this month. China wants to have its own movie industry as a way of spreading their message/cultural imperialism. (For instance, most of the Arab-speaking world gets a lot of cultural cues from Egypt, where the Arab-language movie industry is based. Nigeria is similarly culturally dominant in the African film world. And everyone knows about Bollywood.)

World of Warcraft just pulled out of China indefinitely, as the third-party licensor apparently decided to low-ball Blizzard for the game. WoW was huge in China, to the point that it helped shape the game globally and now that's just, poof, over. (A fact that is presumably freaking people out at Activision-Blizzard.)

 

[billd91]

Decreasingly so.

Since the pandemic, only one new US movie has gotten a scheduled release in China, as I recall, and that just happened this month. China wants to have its own movie industry as a way of spreading their message/cultural imperialism. (For instance, most of the Arab-speaking world gets a lot of cultural cues from Egypt, where the Arab-language movie industry is based. Nigeria is similarly culturally dominant in the African film world. And everyone knows about Bollywood.)

World of Warcraft just pulled out of China indefinitely, as the third-party licensor apparently decided to low-ball Blizzard for the game. WoW was huge in China, to the point that it helped shape the game globally and now that's just, poof, over. (A fact that is presumably freaking people out at Activision-Blizzard.)

I think that's incorrect - not that there has only been a single US movie released in China, but that the market is decreasingly important. It's a huge market that has been, in effect, completely offline to movies since the pandemic. Now that China's reopening public life and surrendering to the idea that COVID is just going to be endemic, I expect the movie market to rebound in a fashion similar to the domestic market - kind of slowly, but still with enough cash that studios will decide how to cater to Chinese social attitudes and government restrictions.

 

[Gradine]

I wonder how many school and public libraries in <insert states> have D&D books or sponsor D&D games or clubs. What is WotC's reaction if <insert states' governors and/or allied media outlets> decide that the next easy batch of media attention is going after D&D's being accepting of <insert something we like>? Or linking D&D to what is in a 2.0 approved book (and thus meeting Hasbro's standards) that deals respectfully and up front with <insert something we like>? I'd like to think that Hasbro would tell such a state to shove off and would offer free books to kids their instead of nuking that material. Is it worth risking without the ability to appeal?

I don't really see how any of this is applicable to the OGL at all. The internet had their hissy fit over gender-inclusive language a decade ago, and the collective religious right's anti-D&D crusade flamed out before most D&D players in this day and age were born. And again, no governor is going to invoke the OGL of all things to target D&D in books when there's a bajillion other things they could point to like demons or devils or gender-fluid elves rather than evilly cackling over a legal document that third party publishers and their fans and barely anybody else actually care about.

That's the thing that bugs me so much about so much of this rhetoric. People getting so caught up in what's technically possible without giving any care or thought to what is probable or even remotely reasonable. It's all so much nothingburger.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think that's incorrect - not that there has only been a single US movie released in China, but that the market is decreasingly important. It's a huge market that has been, in effect, completely offline to movies since the pandemic. Now that China's reopening public life and surrendering to the idea that COVID is just going to be endemic, I expect the movie market to rebound in a fashion similar to the domestic market - kind of slowly, but still with enough cash that studios will decide how to cater to Chinese social attitudes and government restrictions.

It's not up to Hollywood, though. James Cameron has been the only director to pry open China to let his new Avatar movie run in theaters so far. (The Chinese loved Avatar, suggesting they may not have seen Dances with Wolves or Ferngully back in the day.)

You might be right, but it's not like other producers and studios haven't been trying.

 

[Scribe]

World of Warcraft just pulled out of China indefinitely, as the third-party licensor apparently decided to low-ball Blizzard for the game. WoW was huge in China, to the point that it helped shape the game globally and now that's just, poof, over. (A fact that is presumably freaking people out at Activision-Blizzard.)

I know what I'll be looking up this afternoon. Thats crazy!

 

[Cadence]

I don't really see how any of this is applicable to the OGL at all. The internet had their hissy fit over gender-inclusive language a decade ago, and the collective religious right's anti-D&D crusade flamed out before most D&D players in this day and age were born. And again, no governor is going to invoke the OGL of all things to target D&D in books when there's a bajillion other things they could point to like demons or devils or gender-fluid elves rather than evilly cackling over a legal document that third party publishers and their fans and barely anybody else actually care about.

That's the thing that bugs me so much about so much of this rhetoric. People getting so caught up in what's technically possible without giving any care or thought to what is probable or even remotely reasonable. It's all so much nothingburger.

I was kind of thinking about the gender-fluid elves being an easy target among the various things books are being removed from schools and libraries for in several states. (Feels like that has more media and political legs at the moment than the demons and devils). And the new OGL letting Hasbro nuke a 3PP product line if they want because they decided they don't want to take the heat for what the books they had ultimate moral approval over were "promoting".

I'm not sure what is too ridiculous to worry about at this point. A few years ago I would have thought a state actually getting a bill out of committee that would fine state employees for using pronouns that didn't match a persons DNA wouldn't happen either. (Luckily it got shot down 39-8, but apparently only because it might hurt some people they weren't aiming at).

Anyway, I really, really hope you are right. And I'd feel better if it wasn't all up to whoever is running Hasbro at the time if you're not.

 

[Gradine]

I was kind of thinking about the gender-fluid elves being an easy target among the various things books are being removed from schools and libraries for in several states. (Feels like that has more media and political legs at the moment than the demons and devils). And the new OGL letting Hasbro nuke a 3PP product line if they want because they decided they don't want to take the heat for what the books they had ultimate moral approval over were "promoting".

I'm not sure what is too ridiculous to worry about at this point. A few years ago I would have thought a state actually getting a bill out of committee that would fine state employees for using pronouns that didn't match a persons DNA wouldn't happen either. (Luckily it got shot down 39-8, but apparently only because it might hurt some people they weren't aiming at).

TBF, everyone was nervous about "bathroom bills" too, but they get nowhere. Regardless of what might appear to be happening in the slowly self-destructing island hell-nation and the movements and hand-wringing of so many projecting politicians in parts of the country I'm legally not allowed to travel to for work, these efforts on functionally unenforceable laws have failed time and time again and will always consistently fail because theirs is a dying ideology based on fear of the unknown in an increasingly interconnected world. "The arc of history bends toward justice" isn't just an aphorism; it happens for really good reasons.

But that's neither here nor there. There will always be bad actors bending whatever loopholes they can in their favor. The less access they have to, well, anything, the better.

 

[payn]

TBF, everyone was nervous about "bathroom bills" too, but they get nowhere. Regardless of what might appear to be happening in the slowly self-destructing island hell-nation and the movements and hand-wringing of so many projecting politicians in parts of the country I'm legally not allowed to travel to for work, these efforts on functionally unenforceable laws have failed time and time again and will always consistently fail because theirs is a dying ideology based on fear of the unknown in an increasingly interconnected world. "The arc of history bends toward justice" isn't just an aphorism; it happens for really good reasons.

But that's neither here nor there. There will always be bad actors bending whatever loopholes they can in their favor. The less access they have to, well, anything, the better.

Instituting these inept and pointless policies seems to be what counts for getting things done for some folks these days. Sadly, it has some traction (not the laws but convincing people their govt is working).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Do you want to distract yourself from the OGL nonsense.

Do you want to waste minute hours?

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