The "I Didn't Comment in Another Thread" Thread

[Mannahnin]

My only complaint about the Rules Cyclopedia is the artwork. I really, really wish they had included the original artwork from Elmore and Easley, because those images are so iconic and nostalgic for me.

Agreed. The only reason I still don't own a copy of the RC (after nearly 15 years in the OSR) is that the interior art is atrocious.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I don't think people (on the Internet or in real life) aren't able to understand that their experience isn't universal. If you come to a different conclusion than them, it's either that you're too dumb to make the same reasoning OR that you didn't enjoy their experience so the best way to make them agree with you is to educate you about their experience, enabling you to understand their undisputable point of view. They are trying to help.

Haven't you heard people trying to push change in a company (or country)? "You're against the change? I'll EXPLAIN IT to you". What they can't grasp is that you can very well understand the experience and yet disagree.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Agreed. The only reason I still don't own a copy of the RC (after nearly 15 years in the OSR) is that the art is atrocious.

Snarf's Inarguable Ranking of Basics

1. Moldvay

2. Holmes

3.
10 PRINT Bargle Was Framed
20 GOTO 10

4. Mentzer

5. Basic, with Samuel L. Jackson.

6. Black Box

7. Rules Cyclopedia

8.

9. That stuff I drank to counteract the acid of Taco Bell.

10. Retroclones.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Sure, but it's far likely to be Robot-Russian

I don't know where you get your information, but it is wrong, comrade.

 

[Mannahnin]

Counterpoint:

OSRIC doesn't have a harlot table.

Touche!

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I mean, I am trying to develop plot seeds that Hite hasn't covered. It involves a lot of digging.

I find reading Tim Powers helps with that. He and Hite are in some sort of crazy arms race for smashing together the wildest ideas to create plot hooks.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'd much rather learn how to play from OSRIC as well as using it as a rules reference.

Good luck handing a player in the Year of our Lord 2023 a copy of the AD&D 1E PHB and getting them to read and retain that info. Three pages in and the High Gygaxian made them put it down.

You can always use the "real" books for flavor, stats etc.

Yeah, I have the WotC 1E commemorative reprints, after foolishly giving away my originals years ago, but they're nothing but inspirational texts for me now, beyond occasionally going "I really should figure out some way to update Chariot of Sustarre," since that spell wasn't brought forward into WotC editions. (It works better as a magic item, I've decided.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

If WotC would make B/X available POD, that would certainly cut into OSE's sales. That being said, have you perused the OSE books? They're beautifully laid out and designed. The control panel layout, the use of the endpapers for reference tables, the clear and concise explanatory language... They're just great.

It is super-weird to me that WotC, which I guarantee has seen 99% of other publishers' D&D-flavored work, has never said "huh, ribbon bookmarks and useful stuff printed on endpages and book navigation systems in the style of travel guides -- maybe we could do this too!"

I mean, I have hard time backing a Kickstarter project without one or more of those features. Why would I be publishing a MSRP $50 flagship rulebook without them?

 

[Mannahnin]

Yeah, I have the WotC 1E commemorative reprints, after foolishly giving away my originals years ago, but they're nothing but inspirational texts for me now, beyond occasionally going "I really should figure out some way to update Chariot of Sustarre," since that spell wasn't brought forward into WotC editions. (It works better as a magic item, I've decided.)

Just mentioning the spell gave me a flashback to the awfulness of the 1E spell stat blocks. All those spells which were present in the lists for multiple different kinds of casters, would only be printed in full in one list, but would have a partial spell listing with arbitrary differences in casting time, area of effect, duration, or other particulars for no discernable reason.

I do still love my 1E hardcovers for inspiration, and have multiple copies of most of them. I think at least three DMGs and PHs, including a first printing of each, with the yellow endpapers.

 

[Mannahnin]

10. Retroclones.

Have you read any of the zine module series Through Ultan's Door?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Just mentioning the spell gave me a flashback to the awfulness of the 1E spell stat blocks. All those spells which were present in the lists for multiple different kinds of casters, would only be printed in full in one list, but would have a partial spell listing with arbitrary differences in casting time, area of effect, duration, or other particulars for no discernable reason.

Woah now, those are fighting words!

I am going to argue for the approach used by 1e. Differentiating the spell lists by caster, and having each caster have completely different spell lists ... it really made the spell lists different.

It also (in 1e) kept the spells from overlapping that much. Sure, there was some overlap- druids and clerics both had (for example) Cure Light Wounds. But I would say that the spell lists kept the four classes distinct- spells rarely were exactly identical, and often would be different depending on the caster (famously, reincarnation).

I also don't think that the differences were arbitrary. There was usually some type of reason for the differences, although I admit that you might need a post-graduate degree in Gygaxology to discern the reason behind the lengthier casting time for cure light wounds for clerics as opposed to druids.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Have you read any of the zine module series Through Ultan's Door?

I have not.

 

[Bedrockgames]

It's a little bit more complicated than that. People confuse that with the HFCS (High Fructose Corn Syrup) issue. Coke had already begun the transition the HFCS and completed the switch prior to the New Coke rollout, but it was recent. In other words, while they had begun the switch before (1979-81?) and completed it just prior to the switch, when they went back and served Coke Classic it wasn't the same as the "real sugar" (Mexican Coke!) that some people still had the memory of.

That is interesting. Do you know the status of the decocainized coca leaves in the recipe? I remember hearing rumors that had something to do with it as well (but I've also heard they still use decocainized coca leaves in the production-------and if you call and ask they say it is proprietary information----at least they did many years ago when I did so).

 

[Bolares]

All this talk about those ancient editions made me feel really young.... thak you all.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

It is super-weird to me that WotC, which I guarantee has seen 99% of other publishers' D&D-flavored work, has never said "huh, ribbon bookmarks and useful stuff printed on endpages and book navigation systems in the style of travel guides -- maybe we could do this too!"

I've seen the Mona Lisa. I don't think I could do it, though. (Cheap shot at WotC, but I never found their books usable).

 

[Ryujin]

Things that I will never understand, ENWorld Edition:

1. why someone would choose to keep playing a game that makes them so miserable
2. why people who hate something cannot abide others liking it (and vice versa)
3. the concept of "retro-clones."
4. threads that are just five dozen Chinese characters and the name of a university

1. Dopamine and adrenaline.
2. Narcissism.
3. Some people like the 2012 version of "Total Recall" more than the 1990 version. They're wrong, of course.
4. Shotgun effect. Someone will inevitably click the link.

 

[Mannahnin]

Woah now, those are fighting words!

I am going to argue for the approach used by 1e. Differentiating the spell lists by caster, and having each caster have completely different spell lists ... it really made the spell lists different.

It also (in 1e) kept the spells from overlapping that much. Sure, there was some overlap- druids and clerics both had (for example) Cure Light Wounds. But I would say that the spell lists kept the four classes distinct- spells rarely were exactly identical, and often would be different depending on the caster (famously, reincarnation).

I also don't think that the differences were arbitrary. There was usually some type of reason for the differences, although I admit that you might need a post-graduate degree in Gygaxology to discern the reason behind the lengthier casting time for cure light wounds for clerics as opposed to druids.

Different spell lists for different casters is great! I love that. And I'm totally down with the different tables for Reincarnation based on casting class. But for my money, having tiny little inconsistent differences from spell to spell when a given spell is used by different classes is passing a point of diminishing returns in terms of flavor vs. playability. It was definitely an obstacle to memorization, and the books didn't make looking up the differences all that easy. IIRC they didn't even tell you the page number where the full description was, just which class's list to look under.

Perhaps you're right that arbitrary is the wrong word. On pondering, I do seem to recall a general pattern that Cleric spells had slower casting times than the equivalent spell cast by an M-U, for example. But without a discernable rationale, the differences might as well be arbitrary.

I have not.

It's really great. Sweet art, too. I think you'd appreciate the writing and overall style.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I've seen the Mona Lisa. I don't think I could do it, though. (Cheap shot at WotC, but I never found their books usable).

I am confident their bookbinders know how to do ribbon bookmarks and they can definitely hire someone to give them a layout more like a travel guidebook uses. Printing stuff on endpapers is also trivial, although probably a small uptick in cost, since it's a different quality of paper typically and not part of the signatures used to produce most of the book.

It's a matter of being willing to do it and betting it'll improve the reception and sales of the books. Given all the other RPG publishers who do it (a large, large percentage of them), it seems like it must make sense financially.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

"I don't want to buy a thing, and therefore you don't want to buy it either!"

Uh, OK.

 

[Scribe]

"I don't want to buy a thing, and therefore you don't want to buy it either!"

Uh, OK.

I particularly like the sequel.

"I want to buy the thing, and you not wanting to buy it is actual violence."