The "I Didn't Comment in Another Thread" Thread

[trappedslider]

Or hear me out on this: Just enjoy what you play without telling strangers on the net about it or choosing not to care how or what others play?

 

[eyeheartawk]

I'd much rather learn how to play from OSRIC as well as using it as a rules reference.

Good luck handing a player in the Year of our Lord 2023 a copy of the AD&D 1E PHB and getting them to read and retain that info. Three pages in and the High Gygaxian made them put it down.

You can always use the "real" books for flavor, stats etc.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I hate how accurate (and unhelpful) this is.

Weirdly, I was voted that by my High School Class!

Snarf Zagyg, Most Likely to be Accurate But Unhelpful!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I'd much rather learn how to play from OSRIC as well as using it as a rules reference.

Good luck handing a player in the Year of our Lord 2023 a copy of the AD&D 1E PHB and getting them to read and retain that info. Three pages in and the High Gygaxian made them put it down.

You can always use the "real" books for flavor, stats etc.

Counterpoint- in the Year of our Gygax 2023 I can get a High School Club to play AD&D (1e) as an Official SAT Prep Course.

Suck it, 5e.

 

[CleverNickName]

How about...

1. Because it has superior layout and organization, being available in beautiful new books with nice new art and/or clearer explanations of the rules (like Old School Essentials, or OSRIC),
or
2. Because it makes some changes to the rules which you actually like (LotFP, Labyrinth Lord, Adventurer Conqueror King, The Nightmares Underneath).
Or
3. Because you like paper rulebooks, and printed books are for it are so cheap you can buy them for your whole table for the cost of one 5th edition hardcover, thus reducing the barrier to entry for your group (BFRPG).

I mean, I guess #1 and #3 are a little more understandable for me. I don't really see the "superior" and I'm not excited about "new art"...nobody is going to beat Elmore and Easley, imo. But I can definitely get behind the "new books" part because a lot of my old-school stuff is looking pretty ratty. (Thank goodness for print-on-demand.)

 

[Mannahnin]

I'd much rather learn how to play from OSRIC as well as using it as a rules reference.

QFT. Good gods are the initiative and combat sections of the DMG ever an atrocious mess. Not to mention the couple of rules which are in the PH for some reason. Or under treasure (the onset times for potions, IIRC?).

 

[Bedrockgames]

1. People suck.
2. People suck.
3. People don't understand that New Coke will never be better than Coke Classic.
4. People suck.

Thank you. Living through the 80s, I remember what it was like when they made the change and you couldn't get the original (apparently they never truly went back to the original or so I am told but not sure how true that is).

 

[overgeeked]

why someone would choose a clone over the original,

How about...

1. Because it has superior layout and organization, being available in beautiful new books with nice new art and/or clearer explanations of the rules (like Old School Essentials, or OSRIC),
or
2. Because it makes some changes to the rules which you actually like (LotFP, Labyrinth Lord, Adventurer Conqueror King, The Nightmares Underneath).
Or
3. Because you like paper rulebooks, and printed books are for it are so cheap you can buy them for your whole table for the cost of one 5th edition hardcover, thus reducing the barrier to entry for your group (BFRPG).

All that, and...

4. You can buy several complete sets of a retro-clone for the price of the long out of print and collector's priced originals.

5. Superior quality of printing materials and binding. For example, B/X wasn't printed to last. They fall apart, the staples rust and stain the pages, the flimsy paper covers tear, the paper of the pages tears, the boxes they came in get mangled and crushed because they're not sturdily designed, etc. Compare that to Old-School Essentials books and boxed sets. Those things are sturdy and well-made and will last a really long time of regular use before any problems arise.

 

[CleverNickName]

I should clarify: I'm not trying to talk anyone out of buying, creating, or playing a retro-clone game. The whole concept is puzzling to me, but that's a "me" problem.

 

[Gradine]

We prefer the term, "Robot-American," thank you very much! No need to sling pejoratives around this thread!

Sure, but it's far likely to be Robot-Russian

 

[Mannahnin]

I mean, I guess #1 and #3 are a little more understandable for me. I don't really see the "superior" and I'm not excited about "new art"...nobody is going to beat Elmore and Easley, imo. But I can definitely get behind the "new books" part because a lot of my old-school stuff is looking pretty ratty. (Thank goodness for print-on-demand.)

If WotC would make B/X available POD, that would certainly cut into OSE's sales. That being said, have you perused the OSE books? They're beautifully laid out and designed. The control panel layout, the use of the endpapers for reference tables, the clear and concise explanatory language... They're just great.

As for 1E and OSRIC, there's no comparison. The 1E books are a trainwreck of disorganization and the combat and initiative sections are so cumbersome and unclear that I'm quite sure no one on Earth plays them BTB, or ever has.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Thank you. Living through the 80s, I remember what it was like when they made the change and you couldn't get the original (apparently they never truly went back to the original or so I am told but not sure how true that is).

It's a little bit more complicated than that. People confuse that with the HFCS (High Fructose Corn Syrup) issue. Coke had already begun the transition the HFCS and completed the switch prior to the New Coke rollout, but it was recent. In other words, while they had begun the switch before (1979-81?) and completed it just prior to the switch, when they went back and served Coke Classic it wasn't the same as the "real sugar" (Mexican Coke!) that some people still had the memory of.

 

[Gradine]

All of that is true. But what I'm trying to say is that I can't understand:

1. people who enjoy getting upset,
2. how someone on the Internet can't understand their experiences aren't universal,
3. why someone would choose a clone over the original,
4. why someone would create such a bot.

1) Angry ranting can be cathartic, particularly for some who are miserable in other aspects of their lives
2)

3) As others have pointed out, ease of access is a big motivator. Not just access to material, but the accessibility of said material (OCR PDFs, sensible organization, etc.)
4) Plenty of reasons, really. Could be a numbers game (every actual click earns more revenue, even if it's a small percentage); could be a means of testing security, just to name a few

 

[eyeheartawk]

QFT. Good gods are the initiative and combat sections of the DMG ever an atrocious mess. Not to mention the couple of rules which are in the PH for some reason. Or under treasure (the onset times for potions, IIRC?).

Counterpoint:

OSRIC doesn't have a harlot table.

 

[prabe]

Weirdly, I was voted that by my High School Class!

Snarf Zagyg, Most Likely to be Accurate But Unhelpful!

This seems to explain your career path ...

 

[Bolares]

I hate how accurate (and unhelpful) this is.

Now you're just describing Snarf!

 

[CleverNickName]

If WotC would make B/X available POD, that would certainly cut into OSE's sales. That being said, have you perused the OSE books? They're beautifully laid out and designed. The control panel layout, the use of the endpapers for reference tables, the clear and concise explanatory language... They're just great.

Yeah, a couple. I went hard on the Castles & Crusades bandwagon back in the day, when 4E was announced and there was that whole PDF kerfuffle. All I really got out of it was the desire to play BECM, and I ended up spending way too much money on eBay getting a copy of the boxed sets. I still own C&C, but I haven't picked it up in over a decade. I also own a .pdf copy of OSE: Classic Fantasy that I got from DriveThruRPG, but same problem--it only made me want to play the original BECM rules.

 

[eyeheartawk]

Yeah, a couple. I went hard on the Castles & Crusades bandwagon back in the day, when 4E was announced and there was that whole PDF kerfuffle. All I really got out of it was the desire to play BECM, and I ended up spending way too much money on eBay getting a copy of the boxed sets. I still own C&C, but I haven't picked it up in over a decade. I also own a .pdf copy of OSE: Classic Fantasy that I got from DriveThruRPG, but same problem--it only made me want to play the original BECM rules.

I'll admit that BECMI/RC is a harder sell for retroclones (especially now that the PDFs are for sale again). That game is not hard to understand, it's organized in a rational way and it doesn't lack content (B/X leaves you out in the cold if you want to go over level 14, domain mgmt etc). If I wanted to play that, yeah I would probably just grab one of my RC's and call it good.

 

[CleverNickName]

I'll admit that BECMI/RC is a harder sell for retroclones (especially now that the PDFs are for sale again). That game is not hard to understand, it's organized in a rational way and it doesn't lack content (B/X leaves you out in the cold if you want to go over level 14, domain mgmt etc). If I wanted to play that, yeah I would probably just grab one of my RC's and call it good.

My only complaint about the Rules Cyclopedia is the artwork. I really, really wish they had included the original artwork from Elmore and Easley, because those images are so iconic and nostalgic for me.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Using model railroad pieces in Ho scale

I sense a prequel.