D&D 1E The indispensible 1e

[satori01]

In AD&D speed factor didn't relate to hitting first against another weapon, unless:

If initiative was tied between 2 combatants in melee, then a weapon with a much lower speed factor (difference of 7, IIRC), then the faster weapon got an extra attack: e.g. Dagger - Two-handed sword - dagger. This rule gave a slight but concrete disadvantage to the largest weapons.

The other thing speed factor was used for was to compare against casting times.

Using speed factor to adjust initiative for fights in progress doesn't make much sense. Reach is just as important. You don't get proficiency in dagger because you think you can hit the guard with the longs word first. You learn it because it is a versatile weapon that you can carry with you anywhere without raising eyebrows.

right on many points, but the extra attacks from a dagger when combined with Weapon Specialisation or god forbid double weapon Specialisation could decimate people in 1E. That is even before you factored in the 3/1 throwing rate at 1st level going up to 5/1. Field Plate with a high plus dagger FTW.


It did not take long to realize those rules were broken. I do think better mathematics could yield a better result...but ultimately the fact that people most often used the simplest iteration of 1E, roll to hit, roll dmg and most often ignored the other rules is what made it fun.


You could play what you wanted or needed. Going camping and you just want character sheets, the DMG, and dice and you were good to go. Want use those same characters next week in a super detailed aerial combat with the players on Hippogriffs versus a Githyanki Raiding Party on Red Dragons using miniatures and wood block pillars for elevation no problem.

You could dial the complexity at will, and people accepted that some scenarios might have more rules than others.

I want to see THAT taken to D&D Next.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

3. The numbers are off on a number of matrices as I see it. Probably the most important is the Saving Throws table, but your analyses may be different.

Firstly, too many people discount the 1E save system far too easily, typically portraying it as senseless and arbitrary. It's not. It simply places ALL the emphasis on the level of the victim and their class, and concerns itself with the SOURCE of the magic and its intended effect.

While the system is quite decent in and of itself it is indeed the numbers that are off. The Saves should progress steadily, not in jumps of several points after several levels - that's the first and easiest change which was widely implemented as a house rule even in 1E and moreso in 2E. Some of the rates of improvement are at best questionable and most importantly thief saves SUCK. I mean they REALLY suck. While they begin very much as an average of all the other classes they progress slowly and actually wind up with the worst saves overall in the game.

The category of Breath Weapon also winds up being questionable in ending up with high level fighters having the best saves vs breath weapon - in itself not odd but it is when it's the best of any fighter save and the best in the game at high levels. Meanwhile thief BW saves get comparatively worse until it becomes the worst single save of any in the game. I get this image of fighters ducking, bobbing, shoulder rolling out of the way of every dragons breath while thieves stand about in the center of the fiery furnace with a blank look on their face saying, "Whahappn?"

Yeah, the matrices, especially saves, needed "adjustment" of numbers. Then, of course, there's the fact that they still WERE matrices when there were better ways to factor the results (BAB instead of attack matrix, eg.)

But then again, these were the sorts of things that Gygax ADMITTED were likely to happen - that he couldn't think of EVERYTHING and some people would just want to handle some stuff differently if not better. Making those sorts of changes was expected, not shocking and rebellious.

 

[Lanefan]

The category of Breath Weapon also winds up being questionable in ending up with high level fighters having the best saves vs breath weapon - in itself not odd but it is when it's the best of any fighter save and the best in the game at high levels.

I've always thought that to be highly intentional, to allow the St. George slaying the Dragon trope some airtime.

Yeah, the matrices, especially saves, needed "adjustment" of numbers. Then, of course, there's the fact that they still WERE matrices when there were better ways to factor the results (BAB instead of attack matrix, eg.)

I disagree that BAB trumps the attack matrix, in that the attack matrix is behind the screen and thus open to quiet tinkering by the DM. BAB in the players' hands makes the math far too transparent.

That said, the saving throw matrices, both for characters and for items, have been rather mercilessly butchered (and augmented) at this end too.

Lanefan