The Lords of the Nine Hells

[Nightfall]

Erik,

No you can't or no you don't want to?

 

[BOZ]

I stand by my statement about being glad I got to write about demons.

i didn't think that would change, and it's better that you worked on something that you wanted to do rather than something you would consider a headache.

still, it's not quite as complicated as it seems, it's just kind of like unravelling a ball of yarn - it takes time, but once you see where the strings go it's worth it. OK, that's what you get with on-the-spot analogy.

What could be more different?

i will fully, and absolutely admit that i wrote that gigantic missive in the space of 48 hours, when not working full-time, taking care of my family, and watching an ultimately disappointing football game. did i read every page of every source as thoroughly as i would have liked? no, and for no good reason i was in a hurry to get it done, so i did more skimming and skipping than i should have.

i know i can count on you to catch my omissions and errors, which is why i posted this and asked for help. thanks!

I would agree that Asmodeus, Dispater, and Mephistopheles are likely the first ones in their respective layers. I think the others could have easily come much, much later, after countless replacements and new recruits. This is the view found in On Hallowed Ground (page 51):

"It's no dark that the current lords aren't the same ones who came to mortal knowledge long ago. The noble baatezu serving below the original lords learned the politics of their masters well and eventually overthrew the domineering berks. No doubt they were overthrown by their servants in turn. Fact is, this probably happened dozens of times over the eons."

having the others come much later as part of a series of replacements sounds fine. especially those who, themselves, were later replaced. i think the unnamed fellow who baalzebul replaced may have come along with the three oldest, since FC2 implies that he is similar in age to dispater and mephistopheles, if not older than them.

Zariel, Mammon, Belial, Levistus, and Beherit would then have come along a few millennia after Baator was first settled (though not all at the same time) and stabilized their reigns for a good long time. the next likely change would have been that Baalzebul came along and took the 7th layer from the one who held it all along. i'd say Geryon next replaced Levistus, and then Moloch then replaced Beherit, and it stayed that way for a few more millenia before the Reckoning.

if i'm off-base on that, or if it doesn't sound quite right, let me know.

Some of the story behind Beherit's fall is revealed in Elminster of Hell, although Beherit is called "Lucifer" there, his consort is still Batna and the basic story is still the same as it was in Dragon #91. Beherit and Batna decided to copulate and produce a child without the permission of Asmodeus as part of their scheme to overthrow him. Asmodeus was ten steps ahead of him and had him, Batna, and their son Lucifuge destroyed (by devouring them publically). Nergal and Baalzebul both desired rulership of Beherit's former layer, but the layer was awarded to Baalzebul. Nergal was exiled to Avernus in disgrace.

thanks! that's very useful background info.

From Dragon #91, we know that Gargauth was Beherit's ally, and left the Hells shortly after that (possibly, it's hinted, after a failed attempt at overthrowing Asmodeus himself - though he seems to bear Asmodeus no ill will, and respects him the most of the remaining devils). What Gargauth's former position was is not revealed, though Dragon #28 said he (as Astaroth) was Hell's Treasurer. Since Dragon #28 isn't considered canon, though, it's possible he once ruled one of the nine layers. Perhaps he ruled the seventh before Triel?

i'll defenitely have to reconsider Gargoth's importance in Baator's history. it may be possible that he could have been the previous lord of the 7th, if we can assume (and oh, yes, we can), that everything written about the Hells has a good chance of being a lie.

The time lapse between the Reckoning and the present day is important.

A Paladin in Hell says it was "many, many, many years later." [page 28]

A Paladin in Hell says the end of the Reckoning marked the ascension of the Dark Eight (originally the Dark Nine). [page 28] They were the nine generals of the armies of the nine layers, and they turned on the rebellious archdevils at a critical moment.

Guide to Hell says "...their founder, Cantrum, was slain ages ago, the remaining members of the Dark Eight have remained the same as long as anyone can remember."

Faces of Evil: The Fiends says that the pit fiend Cantrum recruited the other pit fiends when he saw the necessity of further order in the ranks of the baatezu, although debate continues as to whether it was originally Cantrum's idea or if he was told to do this by the Lords of the Nine. A Paladin in Hell's origin story implies the idea was Asmodeus', and the nine pit fiends were initially a secret order and only revealed themselves to the archdevils who thought they were their masters during the Reckoning.

Hellbound: The Blood War says the Dark Eight acted in person to deal with the Rebellion of the Inferiors, a minor rebellion of lesser devils that turned out to be orchestrated by balor infiltrators. This event is the only one mentioned between the first discovery that mortal souls could be promoted into new fiendish shapes [The Dark of the War, page 14] and the opening of Ghoresh Chasm [The Dark of the War, page 15], a timespan that doubtless spans eons. Nonetheless, we can deduce that it happened either after or during the Reckoning.

Hellbound also says that the Dark Eight "have ruled their race for millennia" [The Dark of the War, page 18], so we know it's been at least that long since the Reckoning.

Dragon #223, page 14, says the warlord Bel imprisoned his predecessor "thousands of years ago."

so, the moral of the story is that the Reckoning happened millenia ago. i don't think narrowing down specific dates or lengths of time is critical, but sequence of events defeinitely is.

Misinformation on Zariel's part. The same reason Belial hides behind his daughter. Your idea that it was Asmodeus' idea, because of his better relationship with Tiamat, is a good one.

given how complex the tangled webs are woven in the Hells, i'm going to go with "all of the above".

I'd take Tome of Magic and Fiendish Codex II at their word that Asmodeus sought to make Geryon despair so that he would produce that much more energy when the Overlord killed him. He used that energy to empower Glasya to the status of full archdevil. That version isn't quite as exciting as yours, unfortunately.

fair enough. at the same time, my idea doesn't automatically negate that concept; revising it, we get "Asmodeus sought to make Geryon despair to produce enough energy to empower Glasya, at the same time his death transforms him into a vestige that Asmodeus may learn more about this unusual state of being." yes, no, maybe so?

My own elaborate, heretical theory was that Mammon found out about the Reckoning before it happened (being tipped off by one of the Dark Nine) and captured Geryon, disguising himself as him and blowing the horn to signal the Dark Nine's betrayal. Asmodeus predicted he would do this and did nothing to stop him, but he punished Mammon for his duplicity by cursing him with a mockery of Geryon's shape. He punished Geryon for being stupid enough to get captured by Mammon by removing him from power. And this is why Mammon's former allies no longer trust him [as described in the 3e Manual of the Planes).

But officially, I don't think there's anything to it other than what the two recent hardcovers say.

that's another way of looking at it, and not necessarily "wrong".

Now if FCIII will just oust Mydianchlarus and replace him with one of the other more unique altraloths (or return his predecessor to power)....

wrong thread! focus...

Erik,

No you can't or no you don't want to?

or, no you've already tried and they're not listening?

 

[Shemeska]

thanks! that's very useful background info.

Be careful when using material dealing with Baator that Greenwood wrote more recently, because he admittedly tends to use his own personal conception of Baator and not necessarily that which later authors developed over the editions following his Dragon magazine articles. For instance in 'Elminster in Hell' he presents Geryon as still holding a place within the heirarchy of Baator, officially commanding entire companies of troops, answering to Asmodeus in a normal capacity, etc rather than living in exile in Stygia.

What he describes might mesh with previous material he's personally done, but it might not fit well with the bulk of the material elsewhere, just keep that in mind if you use material from there because contraditions may crop up versus mainstream sources. After Elminster in Hell came out, he and I had a little discussion over on Candlekeep about this in general.

fair enough. at the same time, my idea doesn't automatically negate that concept; revising it, we get "Asmodeus sought to make Geryon despair to produce enough energy to empower Glasya, at the same time his death transforms him into a vestige that Asmodeus may learn more about this unusual state of being." yes, no, maybe so?

I wouldn't consider a vestige a powerful or unusual state of being. A lot of vestiges are just formerly powerful beings who after their permenant death have their essence either scattered across the planes to the point of no longer being a distinct being anymore, or they're such beings whose essence was devoured and dispersed by their native plane but who still seek to salvage that original existance. It's not a position to envy, it's one to pity because they're shreds and scraps of a being still seeking to regain a status seperate from its plane, after being consumed by it. Geryon was devoured by Asmodeus, but a lot of his essence probably soaked into Baator in the process, and that spilt essence more or less caused Baator a case of gastric distress because it's not happily submitting to a permenant merger with the plane at large.

 

[Ripzerai]

i will fully, and absolutely admit that i wrote that gigantic missive in the space of 48 hours, when not working full-time, taking care of my family, and watching an ultimately disappointing football game.

Whoa, I wasn't criticizing you! My question was rhetorical, not combative. I felt I needed a strong "finish" for my last paragraph, that's all.

i think the unnamed fellow who baalzebul replaced may have come along with the three oldest, since FC2 implies that he is similar in age to dispater and mephistopheles, if not older than them.

Baalzebul may well have been older than them, but he was busy being older in the Seven Heavens. It could have been eons (the word is thrown around a lot, isn't it?) before he fell, so that the majority of his long existence was spent outside of Baator. Or, just as easily, he could have only been in existence in the Heavens for a short time before his fall. Mephistopheles may have had a different enemy for most of his tenure (perhaps Gargauth, although Dragon #91 indicates that Gargauth respects Mephistopheles, seeing him as a younger version of himself - which might indicate that Mephistopheles is much younger than the Fiendish Codex II myth implies).

Zariel, Mammon, Belial, Levistus, and Beherit would then have come along a few millennia after Baator was first settled (though not all at the same time) and stabilized their reigns for a good long time. the next likely change would have been that Baalzebul came along and took the 7th layer from the one who held it all along. i'd say Geryon next replaced Levistus, and then Moloch then replaced Beherit, and it stayed that way for a few more millenia before the Reckoning.

if i'm off-base on that, or if it doesn't sound quite right, let me know.

It's all arbitrary, and it depends on how long you think the total history of the baatezu in the Nine Hells is. I'd start out at a million years, because the tanar'ri lord Turaglas was born "a thousand times a thousand years ago" according to the October 2003 issue Dragon Magazine.

 

[Ripzerai]

This is my version of their history

Ancient Lords of Baator

The following should be considered speculative rather than definitive. It's disappointing when mysteries are solved and explained, but it's fun to theorize about them.

The Law-Tainted

Everyone's darkest suspicions are true: the earliest of Baator's lords were yugoloths. They were among the Tainted Ones who fled the Heart of Darkness.

How exactly the yugoloth race infected themselves with the taint of alien concepts is unclear; it is almost certain they did it deliberately. There came a time, however, that the General of their race determined that the unclean elements had incubated themselves within yugoloth flesh long enough, and it was time to purge them and see what new creations could be made from what they had hosted.

In the beginning, the number of law-tainted yugoloth rulers was nine, three groups of three. The number of layers Baator would ultimately divide into was decided by them.

If they ever had names, they were abandoned in order to prevent the General from tracking them down, or using their names to use the Heart on their spirits from afar. Because they had no names, they called themselves after the nature of their contaminations.

Taint of Blood
Taint of Darkness
Taint of Fire

Taint of Oblivion
Taint of Stone
Taint of Ruin

Taint of Iron
Taint of Chill
Taint of Mire

Taint of Blood was in many ways the lowliest of the nine. The taint this yugoloth suffered was not just of law, but of mortality. His presence caused other immortals to age and die, while he himself grew progressively more withered over the centuries. The others held him in contempt, an impurity among impurities, believing it was only a matter of time before this gaunt, almost skeletal creature died as a mortal would.

If Taint of Blood was the lowest, Taint of Darkness was considered by all to be the mightiest. Its power was learned in the depths of the Three Glooms and in the darkest realms of Mungoth. It had the power to blind and distort the divinations of its opponents, and it was through the Taint of Darkness that the others made their escape. So it was that all bound themselves in fealty to Darkness' Taint.

Taint of Oblivion had the power to erase and manipulate memory. It claimed to be the creator, or one of the creators, of the River Styx. It was this yugoloth who stripped its fellows of their names.

Taint of Stone could raise or shatter mountains. It helped in the actual construction of the plane. Its sibling, Taint of Iron, created the first cities for the exiled Law-Tainted to dwell in with their experiments and slaves. Taint of Iron's rival was Taint of Ruin, who created balance in the plane by making desolation and waste wherever Taint of Iron had grown too ambitious. The chief ally of Taint of Ruin was Taint of Mire, who preferred swampy bogs in which to perform her experiments on aberrations and many-legged things.

Taint of Fire, who had apprenticed in the shaping of Gehenna, ignited the furnaces of infernal flame, while its rival Taint of Chill created landscapes of snow, ice, and ash.

It is believed that all nine of the Law-Tainted were killed by the generation that would succeed them. However, there are no records dating from this ancient beyond ancient time. It could be that all nine are still alive, manipulating the history of Baator from behind the scenes...

The Elder Baatorians

The Elders were not individuals. They were assemblages, collections of primal concepts drawn from the substance of the plane. They had no names. They were, in fact, older than words or light. They would not incorporate these concepts until much later, when it was far too late.

They can, however, be identified somewhat by their functions.

The Corrector of Errors
The Enslaver of Alien Elements
The Answerer of Questions

The Unveiler of Deceptions
The Eraser of Mistakes
The Deceiver of Enemies

The Builder of Habitations
The Preserver of Trophies
The Manipulator of Lesser Forms

The First Baatezu Lords

The origin of the baatezu is not known for certain. Of course, the yugoloths claim that it was they who engineered the first of that race, though they are reluctant to mention the Law-Tainted. Baatezu myths say they were created by the Lord of the Ninth to aid him in dividing the multiverse under his control. In the library of Demogorgon is a variation of the World Serpent myth that identifies the Lord of the Ninth as one of the aspects of that complex archetypal being. Certain myths even claim the baatezu descend from fallen archons or other celestial beings.

What is known is that the Elder Baatorians ruled the plane for eons uncounting, until a new variation of evil law - the baatezu - fulfilled its function by conquering and subjugating its predecessor. Since then the baatezu have been the unquestioned rulers of the Nine Hells, though it may be that they will not be the last aspect of Order to be able to make that claim.

The following are some of the oldest names - or sometimes only titles - we could uncover, but these are perhaps not truly the oldest.

There were nine.

Mastema of the Torments, the Black Scourge,.
The iron charioteer known as the Donn.
Ssillegmik the Absorber.
Pyrishatar the Dancer.
Tannivar of the Grim Book.
Kafkefoni the Earthsinger.
Sammaaoth, the Lie of Beauty
Qol'Malshalgi, Voice of the Hellfrost
Atar the Accursed, Lord of Light

These nine were made not only to lead their inferiors (who were also winged, though of more humanoid form) in battle against the ancient natives, but to transform the nine layers in accordance with their will - even to become the layers, in a sense. This they did, and as a consequence none of them can be killed until the layers they are associated with are also destroyed.

Despite this, only two of them are still active in the affairs of the multiverse, and only one still rules.

Mastema of the Torments was cut into pieces by fiends from the Abyss. Its blood runs in rivers. Its spine and ribs have grown cities.

The Iron Charioteer no longer remembers his nature, having been bound into a humanoid form by an ancient haglike creature. He calls himself Dispater, and this is the only identity he knows.

Ssillegmik has become one with the swamps. It continues to devour all things on its layer, sucking down even the capitol Minauros.

Pyrishatar the Dancer was seduced by Belial. Some say she was bound in the heart of the volcano the city of Abryimis was built around; some say she lives still, entranced, as a member of Belial's harem.

Tannivar's library was destroyed, covered in flood waters and forever forgotten. Tannivar lingered on, bent and sorrowful of his loss, until he was devoured by Levistus. Apparently he remains dormant in the innards of the frozen prince.

Kafkefoni used her voice to draw forth the stones of her realm to crush and destroy the cities of the Ancients. She continued to rule with fierceness and determination, but her fascination with the buried ruins of her foe prooved her undoing. She would call them up and try to learn from them, and eventually she unearthed something she couldn't handle. They say she remains underground, broken, in the posession of those she once defeated.

Sammaaoth, in his garden realm, collected beautiful things and corrupted them from within. Triel the Fallen became one of his pets, for a time.

Qol'Malshagi was stripped of his mind by the insectoid Rimmon. He became a mindless, undead bladestorm, full of ice and fury and signifying nothing. Eventually Mephistopheles would learn the secret of commanding it.

Atar pierced the darkness of the deepest layer with purest evil light, using illumination to cut Nessus into manageable chunks. With this light Atar ruled Nessus for millennia until Triel the Fallen made a deal with the asura Absalom, bringing forth endless flights of celestials in exchange for a legendary cache of stolen souls. Triel, calling himself Baalzebul, forced Atar to accept himself and Belial as co-rulers in a new triumvirate. After a time, Atar managed to gain sole control of his realm once again, but suddenly quit, leaving for parts unknown. In the ensuing conflict, an avatar of the Unholy itself, Asmodeus, gained the throne of all Baator, and thus it has remained.

The Emanations
It came to pass that the Unholy One desired to cleanse or disinfect the plane of its current inhabitants and introduce a new pathogen. To rewrite the plane.

The unholy created nine emanations of itself, long and serpentine with vast wings, to execute its will.

Sargantanaeon, the Fiery One, Ruler of Avernus
Gagh Shekelah, the Smith, Ruler of Dis
Rhotomagaeon, the Concealer, Ruler of Minauros

Kafkefoni, Fiery Hinderer, now a mere concubine of Belial's
Tanniver, the Blind Dragon, Gray Guardian of the Book of the Fifth
Tagariraeon, the Haggler, Ruler of Malbolge

Sammaeon, Guardian of the Garden of the Seventh
Nuraeon, the Wind of Hellfrost in the Eighth
Ataraeon, Lord of Light in the Ninth

Chashek, the Lord of Darkness

Procession of the Hierarchs
In the tumultuous early days before the coming of the Unifier, many layers changed hands.

Sargantanas, Lord of Avernus
Dispater, Lord of Dis
Amaimon, Lord of Minauros

Kakfkefoni, Lady of Phlegethos
Levistus, Lord of Stygia
Ronwe, Lady of Malbolge

Sammaeon, Lord of Maladomini
Baalphegor, Lady of Cania
Atar, Bright Lord of Nessus

Melchiresha, the Unholy

The Primordial Rebellion
Myths say a third of the archons fell. A triumvirate is created in Hell. There is the beginning of a schism between those created as baatezu and the fallen archons and their followers.

Zariel, Lady of the First
Dispater, Lord of the Second
Amaimon, Lord of the Third

Levistus, Lord of the Fourth and Fifth
Beherit, Lord of the Sixth
Gargauth, Lord of Seventh and Eighth

Atar, Bright Lord of Nessus
Triel, Lord of the Flies in Nessus
Belial, Dark Lord of Nessus

Melchiresha, the Unholy

A Failed Coup
The triumvirate doesn’t last long; a lord called Asmodeus takes control after only a few centuries. Beherit and Gargauth attempted to seize control of the Hells. In a possibly unrelated attack, Levistus attempted to steal control of Asmodeus' consort Bensozia. All were punished.

Zariel, Lady of the First
Dispater, Lord of the second
Mammon, Lord of the Third

Belial, Lord of the Fourth
Armaros, Lord of the Fifth
Nergal, Lord of the Sixth

Baalzebul, Lord of the Seventh
Rimmon, Lord of Cania
Asmodeus, Dark Lord of Nessus

Interlude
Politics as usual, stretching across eons. In a blow to the baatezu camp, Baalzebul drives Nergal out of Malbolge, replacing him with Baalzebul's own vassal Moloch. Mammon loses his seat to the deal-maker Azazel the Serpent, who renames himself Mammon. Mephistopheles storms down from Nessus to seize control of Cania. He proves himself to the baatezu camp by framing Armaros, the fallen archon ruler of the Fifth, for a crime he did not commit. Armaros is replaced with the baatezu noble Geryon.

Zariel, Lord of the First
Dispater, Lord of the Second
Mammon Minauros, Lord of the Third

Belial, Lord of the Fourth
Geryon, Lord of the Fifth
Moloch, Lord of the Sixth

Baalzebul, Lord of the Seventh
Mephistopheles, Lord of the Eighth
The Dark Lord of Nessus

The Reckoning
After Mephistopheles gained his throne, tension between him and Baalzebul grew greater and greater. The Hells firmly divided into two camps, and their cold war eventually flared into the Reckoning. Baator's political planescape changed again. Later on, Bel seized control of Avernus from his mistress Zariel and Baron Molikroth stages a coup in Cania.

Bel, Warlord of Avernus
Dispater, Archduke of Dis
Viscount Mammon of Minauros

Great Belial and Lady Fierana of Phlegethos
Levistus, Prince of Stygia
Malagard, Hag Countess of Malbolge

Triel, Slug Archduke of Maladomini
Molikroth, Baron of Cania
The Dark Lord of Nessus

The Present
This brings us to the present state of affairs, more or less. Molikroth has revealed himself to be Mephistopheles in disguise. Levistus has designs on his neighboring layers. The Hag Countess has been replaced by Glasya.

Bel, Warlord of Avernus
Dispater, Archduke of Dis
Viscount Mammon of Minauros

Great Belial and Lady Fierna of Phlegethos
Levistus, Prince of Stygia
Glasya, Archduchess of Malbolge

Baalzebul, Slug Archduke of Maladomini
Mephistopheles, Archduke of Cania
Asmodeus, the Dark Lord of Nessus

 

[BOZ]

Whoa, I wasn't criticizing you! My question was rhetorical, not combative. I felt I needed a strong "finish" for my last paragraph, that's all.

i know. i was criticizing myself though, for not having been more thorough and rushing the job.

 

[BOZ]

Baalzebul may well have been older than them, but he was busy being older in the Seven Heavens. It could have been eons (the word is thrown around a lot, isn't it?) before he fell, so that the majority of his long existence was spent outside of Baator. Or, just as easily, he could have only been in existence in the Heavens for a short time before his fall. Mephistopheles may have had a different enemy for most of his tenure (perhaps Gargauth, although Dragon #91 indicates that Gargauth respects Mephistopheles, seeing him as a younger version of himself - which might indicate that Mephistopheles is much younger than the Fiendish Codex II myth implies).

i agree that baalzebul could easily be as old as any of the oldest devils (Asmodeus likely exluded). however, the other devils (Asmodeus exluded again) probably don't respect that at all, looking only at his time in Baator which must have been a lot shorter than many of them.

mephistopheles may be younger than we think - or maybe gargauth is a lot older? i picture asmodeus and gargauth both being unimaginably old, even when compared to dispater and mephistopheles.

It's all arbitrary, and it depends on how long you think the total history of the baatezu in the Nine Hells is. I'd start out at a million years, because the tanar'ri lord Turaglas was born "a thousand times a thousand years ago" according to the October 2003 issue Dragon Magazine.

yeah, it is mostly arbitrary, and likely to be defined differently in everyone's own home version of the multiverse.

what do you think the age of the Abyss is when compared to Baator though? a million years is certainly a possibility. and even if it were, i think it existed before Asmodeus got there, so he may or may not be younger than the plane, and he is almost certainly older than every other devil.

 

[BOZ]

The following should be considered speculative rather than definitive. It's disappointing when mysteries are solved and explained, but it's fun to theorize about them.

i absolutely agree. it's also fun to take ideas presented as factual truths and say, "well, that's what they say about it, but these guys think differently..."

 

[Shemeska]

i agree that baalzebul could easily be as old as any of the oldest devils (Asmodeus likely exluded).

As an archon originally, Baalzebul would have to have originated after the formation of life on the prime material and the migration of mortal souls into the outer planes, so we've got a limit on how old he could possibly be. The same limit applies to Bel, because having risen from the ranks of the orthodox Baatezu, he would have started out as a lemure and worked his way up from there. Again we know he can't be older than the advent of mortal life (unlike some beings who existed prior to that point).

FC:II presents a myth that would have some of the oldest of the Baatezu prior to their "fall" to Baator being potentially Aasimon of early deities of Law (which might make Baalzebul as old as any of them), or more likely once you strip the myth down to some core truth unburdened by latterday twists and additions, the first Baatezu might have started as servants of earlier beings of a primordial LN plane before (or at the cusp of when) the cardinal alignments began to sully and mix, forming the intervening planes.

We know that the Baatezu weren't the first denezins of Baator, and were preceeded by the Ancient Baatorians, and the timeline here as far as it will be relevant to the Baatezu entry into Baator, depends on if the formation of the Ancient Baatorians required the use of larvae or not. The Obyriths who were spawned at the same time and by the same beings, we know that they existed prior to larvae/mortal life, and so we might assume the same for the Ancient Baatorians now as well. Were it the other way around, this would put a limit on the age of the first Baatezu as well.

what do you think the age of the Abyss is when compared to Baator though? a million years is certainly a possibility. and even if it were, i think it existed before Asmodeus got there, so he may or may not be younger than the plane, and he is almost certainly older than every other devil.

Baator certainly existed prior to the arrival of the Baatezu, and FC:II openly admits this, though it doesn't get into the history of the plane before the Baatezu (no good conquerer of a plane would need to go into the details previous to their reign).

Baator and the Abyss are the same age, roughly speaking. If we assume that the Abyss formed at the point of (or shortly before) the Obyrith migration and colonization of that plane then the Ancient Baatorians would have migrated during the same epoch into an earlier version of Baator, or the plane might have formed around them as a consequence of their exodus. The arrival of the Baatezu some time afterwards wouldn't have formed the plane, but it would have impacted the structure and metaphysical composition of it.

 

[Ripzerai]

what do you think the age of the Abyss is when compared to Baator though? a million years is certainly a possibility. and even if it were, i think it existed before Asmodeus got there, so he may or may not be younger than the plane, and he is almost certainly older than every other devil.

We have just a few major events to think about:

# Law shaping the Outer Planes from Chaos. As described in one of the FCI myths, the Abyss was the waste product, the refuse left over from that event. This is described in a different way in Guide to Hell's Twin Serpents myth, with Law symbolized by two cosmic snakes that shape the Great Ring from Chaos.

# Law becoming aware of Good and Evil. As described in the FCII parable, and also in the Guide to Hell parable, this seems to have been the beginning of the baatezu race, although Baator itself existed before this. Perhaps this means that Evil was aware of Law before Law was aware of Evil. The ancient Baatorians are the result of Evil (the baernaloths) using Law as a tool without the progenitors of Order (the Twin Serpents or the entities described as Heironeous/Asmodeus/Moradin/Yondalla/St. Cuthbert in the FCII) knowing about it.

# So that gives us a third event. Evil using Law and Chaos as tools without the awareness of the latter two forces. This is possibly how the obyriths came into being, as well as the ancient Baatorians.

# The fourth event is the creation of mortals. This coincided with the creation of the tanar'ri by the obyriths, and is the event (according to one myth) over which Law contended with itself and first became aware of evil.

So, putting them in order:

1. Law and Chaos clash, and a primitive version of the Great Wheel is formed. Initially there is only Law, Chaos, Evil, Balance, and Good, and they do not blend or touch.

2. Evil exploits the bad feelings the forces of primal Chaos have over this event, creating the obyriths from the beings of pure Chaos. At about the same time, Baator is created, though the forces of Law do not yet know its significance. Presumedly, something similar happens on the Upper Planes. The number of Outer Planes increases to nine.

3. The obyriths begin warring against the primal beings of Law, ignoring the Ancient Baatorians (as everyone but the yugoloths seem to).

3. Mortal life develops to the point where its souls begin entering the Outer Planes. The obyriths transform mortal souls into the first tanar'ri. One of the beings of primal Law (Asmodeus) suggests that some of the souls that come to the plane of Law (later called Mechanus) should be set aside for punishment so that they do not disturb the contemplations of the other Lawful Beings. The Beings of Law also wish to help the Wind Dukes fight the war against the obyriths without getting their own hands dirty, so one of their number creates a race of servitors to do so. Eventually, as the punishments get more severe and the war against Chaos gets more brutal, this Being of Law descends to Baator and creates the baatezu from his warriors of Law. The other Beings of Law slowly become aware of the great evil that is being done in their names there. With knowledge of Evil comes knowledge of Good, and some of the Lawful Beings ascend to Celestia, which probably already exists in some form.

From this, I would gather that Baator and the Abyss are approximately equal in age, but the tanar'ri are somewhat older than the baatezu. However, the baatezu came into existence before the end of the Law-Chaos war on the Plains of Pesh, and in fact were probably among the major fighters alongside the Wind Dukes.