D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Chaosmancer]

Yes being incredibly strong = extraordinary.

I didn't say they did. The old english were telling stories, not playing a RPG. Different audiences have different needs. I am, and have been, only talking about RPG specific jargon. What need to understand what is happen with respect to our reality.

I never said it was limited to strength. I was just talking about made them heroes. However, many did have extraordinary strength and/or equipment.

But, honestly, the term we use for it shouldn't matter.

Dragon Breath is, canonically, magical. It is magic of the background radiation of the multiverse, and so it cannot be dispelled, countered, or affected by an anti-magic field, but the designers have called it magic. But, if you read the description of dragon breath... none of that was stated. It is no where in the books. Why?

Because the only time it came up was when someone demanded to know if Dragon Breath was magical, and if it could be counterspelled. That's the reason this logic exists. I understand you want to have the precise mechanical definition, but honestly, you need to do that with so many things, only because of one set of abilities. The only time it matters whether a paladin's aura is magical, supernatural, or extraordinary is when you are interacting with dispel magic and anti-magic field. That's it. Otherwise, we've never needed to label these things.

Ki is a type of magic, but it isn't meant to interact with those three spells. Because those spells were designed... to deal with spells! So, if you set those three spells aside... really.. in the end... it doesn't matter. Is Ki magic or an supernatural force expressing the soul of a warrior? Both! Neither! Let the players decide on that. What we do know is that Monks have a Ki pool and they spend it to activate abilities. And what those abilities do. Why do fighters never mention ki?! Because they don't have a mechanical Ki pool that they spend for abilities. That's why. It is a mechanic first, but whatever force it is exists in all living things, just like the magic of the dragon.

Call it magic
Call it supernatural forces
Call it extraordinary training.

All of them are the same thing, in the end, until you need to specifically say "this is a spell that can be counterspelled" or "this is an effect that is suppressed by anti-magic fields". Until that point, the label doesn't actually mean anything, in the context of the game.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Agreed! That is my point!

But your point seems to be "therefore I need to define whether this is achieved magically, mystically, technologically or biologically" and... I don't care. It might change depending on the setting, or the flavor people want, but what is more directly impactful for the player is being able to leap 15 ft in the air.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I disagree with your assessment. Though they are not exact, they are pretty close.

For me: a ghost is magical / supernatural / extraordinary. An owlbear is a little iffy, but I think a D&D dragon is: magical / supernatural / extraordinary

So if something doesn't exist in our world, it's automatically magical and supernatural?

Except owlbears, who shall be unaddressed.

Okay, so what about things that aren't part of our world yet? Were clones magical and supernatural before Dolly?

What about science fiction? Are aliens magical?

And let's go back to the ghost. We can check this simple Magic Alertness test: place ghost in antimagic field. The ghost continues to exist.

 

[Vaalingrade]

So wizardry is not supernatural. I don't think this works...

Not in a setting where magic is naturally-occurring. Like, say D&D settings. Something inherently natural cannot be supernatural.

 

[Minigiant]

Climb up its leg and hack out enough of a hole to get to the heart.

Use some imagination man!

That's additional rules at 95% of tables.

That's my point.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Given the number of things fantasy books and movies don't generally feel they have to explain to us ( do people breathe? air? is there gravity? do people eat? are they burned by fire? do they float? do people weigh more than a bowling ball and less than an elephant? etc.....) that feels truthful to me.

A lot of that is mirrored by unexplained fantasy stuff. How do Dwarves live so long? Where do gods come from? Why does magic exist?

This varies from author to author of course. The PHB has a ton of it though.

 

[FrogReaver]

That's additional rules at 95% of tables.

That's my point.

Then I submit that making martials supernatural is most likely not going to solve your problem. Making them stronger or able to jump higher or throw boulders or whatever doesn’t solve the problem you have with the 20ft tall demon and a fighter wielding a dagger.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Then I submit that making martials supernatural is most likely not going to solve your problem. Making them stronger or able to jump higher or throw boulders or whatever doesn’t solve the problem you have with the 20ft tall demon and a fighter wielding a dagger.

Being able to climb said 20ft tall demon is one of the things that's apparently magic for no reason.

 

[FrogReaver]

Being able to climb said 20ft tall demon is one of the things that's apparently magic for no reason.

Name one person that’s said that.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But that then begs the question what is d&d’s base fantasy setting like or at least intended to be like - and it seems fairly clear that it’s modeled mostly after our real world with some exceptions. I don’t think there’s a way to get around that.

In DnD a man can swim in full plate armor across the mississipi river, with no discernible practice, training or exerted effort.

In DnD, a scholar who has never picked up a pack in his life can slug on an 80 lbs backpack, take an 8 hour march across rough terrain, go to sleep, and do it again the next morning. For a month.

In DnD, your average Knight is as strong as a silverback gorilla, which in the real world is considered about as strong as 20 average mean. Gladiators are stronger still.

In DnD, a street thief with no training, can free-hand scale a 9 story building in six seconds. Everyone can do so in thirty seconds.

In DnD, everyone from most every dimension speaks the same language, with barely any regional variance.

In DnD, everyone across dimensions uses the same coinage value. A gold piece in a poor village in Flnaderes is the exact same value in Sigil or in Strixhaven academy.

There are more "exceptions" to DnD being like the real world Earth than there are things modeled after it. The closest things are really "it is a planet with water where people have jobs"