D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

Are you really going to dismiss the depth, maturity, and (yes!) realism* of Eberron with "Another boring anything goes book"?

*Major example, religion. Eberron religion is FAR more realistic than nearly every other official setting.

Eberron run as kitchen sink anything goes doesnt interest me. I may add 1-2 other races but probably not. Takes focus away from thongs that do interest me about Eberron.

Bit more context. I had 3 groups 2024. Invited the wrong people into one and another group had to players that were fine individually but not togather.

They ended up annoying me, offending tge wife and annoying my veterans. Combination of different playstyles, personality clashes.

Basically they were all goofing off. Nothing wrong with that by itself but it was the the vibe.

They all has conflicting desires. One wanted to change the hours. Another wanted a new venue, another was a roll player vs a role player. Individually thry were all fine not togather.

I ended up closing two groups down, cherry picked the ones that had potential and recruited newbies. It was more fun playing with newbies.

One players advice. If youre not having fun why bother. I was running a democracy but the problem was the people who got out voted tended to leave (Magitech vs Norse finalists).

So rather than let them pick from 5 options run 1 option you like and recruit appropriate players. Enthusiastic players and DM tops specific styles, settings etc. Players who pick random crap the do random crap to the extent they're annoying everyone else 🙄 Incompatible desires.

Cant please everyone waste of time trying.
 

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The second one is confirming it. It all has a place in Eberron. There's entire sections of the later Monster Manuals detailing how to put things in there

Also like. The idea of excluding goblins or hobgoblins from an Eberron game because their stats were in another book, given the importance of them to the setting? Y'know, Dhakaani empire and all?
The one, and only, thing preventing any first-party D&D option from appearing in Eberron is because the GM personally decided they didn't like it.

Everything--everything--has a place in Eberron, unless the GM refuses. Which means the GM takes 100% of the responsibility for choosing to excise something. They cannot make recourse to "setting consistency" or "aesthetics" or any other excuse beyond pure personal like or dislike.

The one and only excuse I would ever accept is one of balance...and 5e isn't a sufficiently finely-balanced game to warrant being that picky about first-party 5th edition species or classes or spells. It's a hot mess, balance-wise; of course, it's not the thermonuclear trash-fire that 3e was in balance terms, but "better than the worst-balanced edition" is damning with faint praise. Simply put, nothing in 5e is so brokenly over- or under-powered that balance alone would justify its exclusion from Eberron.
 

Why is there this persistent idea that rejecting a game is the easiest thing anyone ever does, and never has any negative consequences or reasons why people would be unwilling to do it?

Rejecting a game is not a trivial task. Rejecting any social engagement, especially if it's one where People Will Talk About It, is an extremely serious thing. I have, many, many times in my life, had to do things I outrightly hated, things I would rather have been nearly anywhere else doing nearly anything else, because the social cost of refusal was beyond my means to pay.

Let's not pretend that 100% of games are total absolute strangers incidentally interacting for two seconds and then if it isn't immediately a hit they move on. I have been ostracized from games because folks thought I was "too picky". I have gotten into games because the other people who applied to those games had a bad reputation and were quietly turned down because of it.

This is precisely the kind of environment where people being jerks get away with it, often for extended periods of time, if they are simply adroit enough to exploit the social situation. And guess what "I'm willing to GM games" is? An all-expenses-paid trip to the I Can Make Demands Of Anyone zone.

Its more players demanding things to the extent of its my way or the highway i dont want to play with them.

Its mostly hypothetical real world newbies that are enthusiastic help.

One guy was dead set on raven queen. To level 20. After I dropped $300 on product. Egyptian themed game. Ra, Anubis etc.

Wrong game for raven queen. Wrong time i bought the Midgard stuff after real life stuff. I wanted to focus on Midgard. Great campaign until Covid lock downs kiled it.
 

The second one is confirming it. It all has a place in Eberron. There's entire sections of the later Monster Manuals detailing how to put things in there

Also like. The idea of excluding goblins or hobgoblins from an Eberron game because their stats were in another book, given the importance of them to the setting? Y'know, Dhakaani empire and all?
It does not because the gm of each game is the one to decide what to add how it is added and if it gets added at all you are pushing something very different
 

Its more players demanding things to the extent of its my way or the highway i dont want to play with them.

Its mostly hypothetical real world newbies that are enthusiastic help.

One guy was dead set on raven queen. To level 20. After I dropped $300 on product. Egyptian themed game. Ra, Anubis etc.

Wrong game for raven queen. Wrong time i bought the Midgard stuff after real life stuff. I wanted to focus on Midgard. Great campaign until Covid lock downs kiled it.
Are you familiar with the story of Isis?

She actively put the safety of the universe at risk in order to get Ra's ren, what we would call his "true name". When she received it, she became the most powerful deity in the pantheon, mastering magic, cosmological power, political power, and healing almost to the point of being able to restore the dead. Later interpolations presented this as her getting this power solely to pass it on to her son Horus (especially with the whole "Ra-Horakhty" thing, since Horakhty was Horus in the aspect of the rising sun), but as best as we can find in the early texts, there is no special association with her wanting to power up her son. She did it out of ambition, a thirst for knowledge, and certainty that she was the correct choice for that power. Because she spearheaded the development of mummy embalming, she was also seen as a psychopomp, a deity responsible for guiding the dead to their rightful place, and for keeping the dead in their rightful place. She was frequently invoked both as a shield against ill fortune or ill health, and as a guiding star when escaping from such things. Fate, Death, Life, Magic, Power.

That's who your Egyptian Raven Queen is. It's Isis.

Which, I mean, that's sort of the point I've been trying to make here. Even many things that seem profoundly irreconcilable often are very reconcilable indeed....if only you're willing to do some digging. For my players, I am always willing to do that digging. And that's why they trust my judgment, accept my rulings, and eagerly participate in my games. They don't need to accept on faith that I'm doing this for them. They can literally see it, week in and week out, in my actions.

The GM must earn their players' trust. They don't deserve it just because they declared they were going to sit behind the screen. All that? All the hard work and careful preparation and improvisational acumen? That's just what permits them to sit behind the screen. You want trust as a GM, you earn it, by actually showing your players that it makes you happy when they're happy. By actually showing them that your goal IS their happiness--not that your goal is your own happiness, with the coincidental side benefit that it might make a player happy.
 

Why is there this persistent idea that rejecting a game is the easiest thing anyone ever does, and never has any negative consequences or reasons why people would be unwilling to do it?

Rejecting a game is not a trivial task. Rejecting any social engagement, especially if it's one where People Will Talk About It, is an extremely serious thing. I have, many, many times in my life, had to do things I outrightly hated, things I would rather have been nearly anywhere else doing nearly anything else, because the social cost of refusal was beyond my means to pay.

Let's not pretend that 100% of games are total absolute strangers incidentally interacting for two seconds and then if it isn't immediately a hit they move on. I have been ostracized from games because folks thought I was "too picky". I have gotten into games because the other people who applied to those games had a bad reputation and were quietly turned down because of it.

This is precisely the kind of environment where people being jerks get away with it, often for extended periods of time, if they are simply adroit enough to exploit the social situation. And guess what "I'm willing to GM games" is? An all-expenses-paid trip to the I Can Make Demands Of Anyone zone.
I don’t think anyone is claiming that rejecting a game is cost-free in every possible social context. Of course it isn’t. Social friction exists everywhere—games don’t magically opt out of that. But there’s a big difference between “sometimes saying no has social consequences” and “therefore saying no is not a reasonable expectation.”

In a healthy, non-toxic gaming environment, rejecting a game usually looks much more mundane than what you’re describing.

A GM proposes a campaign with a premise and constraints. People who like that premise opt in. People who don’t, opt out. No moral failing is implied. No blacklist gets activated. It’s just preference.

Example:

GM: “I’m planning a Spelljammer campaign. PCs wake up with no memories, level 1, no clerics or warlocks. Anyone interested?”
Player A: “Absolutely.”
Player B: “Sounds fun.”
Player C: “Not my thing—ping me for the next one.”


That interaction is not unusual. It’s the norm in groups that treat gaming as voluntary collaboration rather than social leverage.

Now, you’re absolutely right about one thing: there are spaces where refusing a game carries reputational risk, where people are quietly judged as “difficult” or “picky,” and where GMs can exploit their position to make unreasonable demands. Those environments exist. But that’s not a universal truth about tabletop games—it’s a description of dysfunctional social dynamics.

And here’s the uncomfortable part: those dynamics don’t get better by normalizing endurance. They persist because people feel they can’t say no.

“I’m willing to GM” only becomes a blank check if the group collectively treats it that way. In groups that don’t, GM authority is scoped: you pitch a game, not a social obligation.

No one is owed your time, your discomfort, or your silence. Not a GM. Not a friend group. Not a community with a rumor mill.

Yes, opting out can have consequences. But staying in bad games has consequences too—and they compound. Burnout, resentment, and learned helplessness are not trivial costs.

D&D isn’t a job, a family obligation, or a survival strategy. It’s a hobby. The baseline assumption has to be mutual enjoyment. When that assumption breaks, leaving isn’t antisocial—it’s honest.

If a space punishes people for declining games, that’s not evidence that declining is unreasonable. It’s evidence that the space is unsafe.
 

If a space punishes people for declining games, that’s not evidence that declining is unreasonable. It’s evidence that the space is unsafe.
Then ENWorld, GitP, Myth-Weavers, Reddit, Discord, Roll20, and at least two versions of the official WotC forums are unsafe.

Because I have seen this exact thing happen in every single one of those spaces. Yes, even here.
 

I don’t think anyone is claiming that rejecting a game is cost-free in every possible social context. Of course it isn’t. Social friction exists everywhere—games don’t magically opt out of that. But there’s a big difference between “sometimes saying no has social consequences” and “therefore saying no is not a reasonable expectation.”

In a healthy, non-toxic gaming environment, rejecting a game usually looks much more mundane than what you’re describing.

A GM proposes a campaign with a premise and constraints. People who like that premise opt in. People who don’t, opt out. No moral failing is implied. No blacklist gets activated. It’s just preference.

Example:

GM: “I’m planning a Spelljammer campaign. PCs wake up with no memories, level 1, no clerics or warlocks. Anyone interested?”
Player A: “Absolutely.”
Player B: “Sounds fun.”
Player C: “Not my thing—ping me for the next one.”


That interaction is not unusual. It’s the norm in groups that treat gaming as voluntary collaboration rather than social leverage.

Now, you’re absolutely right about one thing: there are spaces where refusing a game carries reputational risk, where people are quietly judged as “difficult” or “picky,” and where GMs can exploit their position to make unreasonable demands. Those environments exist. But that’s not a universal truth about tabletop games—it’s a description of dysfunctional social dynamics.

And here’s the uncomfortable part: those dynamics don’t get better by normalizing endurance. They persist because people feel they can’t say no.

“I’m willing to GM” only becomes a blank check if the group collectively treats it that way. In groups that don’t, GM authority is scoped: you pitch a game, not a social obligation.

No one is owed your time, your discomfort, or your silence. Not a GM. Not a friend group. Not a community with a rumor mill.

Yes, opting out can have consequences. But staying in bad games has consequences too—and they compound. Burnout, resentment, and learned helplessness are not trivial costs.

D&D isn’t a job, a family obligation, or a survival strategy. It’s a hobby. The baseline assumption has to be mutual enjoyment. When that assumption breaks, leaving isn’t antisocial—it’s honest.

If a space punishes people for declining games, that’s not evidence that declining is unreasonable. It’s evidence that the space is unsafe.
And to be clear, the takeaway from this isn’t that we need blanket rules forcing GMs to accommodate every player demand in order to “balance power.”

That would be solving the wrong problem.

A GM pitching a specific campaign, with specific constraints, is not exercising abusive power. That’s just creative authorship. Saying “this is the game I want to run” is not coercion — it’s an invitation. Players are free to accept or decline.

The actual problem is spaces where declining is punished rather than simply accepted. Where reputation, access, or social standing are leveraged to keep people compliant. You don’t fix that by flattening all GM authority or by turning every table into a negotiation committee.

You fix it by dismantling unsafe norms:
– treating participation as optional, not obligatory
– normalizing “no thanks” as a complete answer
– refusing to protect people from people who repeatedly exploit social pressure, regardless of whether they’re GMs or players

Healthy spaces don’t require rules to prevent abuse because abuse doesn’t pay off there. Unhealthy spaces will always find ways around rules.

So the goal isn’t to nerf GMs. It’s to stop rewarding bad social behavior.
 

Then ENWorld, GitP, Myth-Weavers, Reddit, Discord, Roll20, and at least two versions of the official WotC forums are unsafe.

Because I have seen this exact thing happen in every single one of those spaces. Yes, even here.
How the hell are you punished here on ENWorld if you say no to a game somebody proposes to run?
Like, that is literally impossible.
Like ... okay, pro life tip here: If somebody here on ENWorld (or on Reddit or any other online platform) proposes to DM a GM with a premise you don't like, you don't answer that post, okay?
 

How the hell are you punished here on ENWorld if you say no to a game somebody proposes to run?
Like, that is literally impossible.
Like ... okay, pro life tip here: If somebody here on ENWorld (or on Reddit or any other online platform) proposes to DM a GM with a premise you don't like, you don't answer that post, okay?
...

Socially punished.

And if you think ENWorld as a community doesn't use social pressure to control or manipulate the behavior of others, then I'm not sure what to tell you, because it happens all the time. And I'm not talking about the moderators enforcing the rules. That's completely unrelated. I'm talking about cliques and social groups and exclusion and labelling. It happens all the time.
 

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