The Mortal God

[DM_Blake]

I voted for "Better Than" but it's not quite accurate for my campaign.

I use The Primal Order, a great little book that gives a whole new set of "Primal" powers that far transcend anything a mortal can ever do.

Examples:
Primal Blast: A bolt of pure primal power that automatically hits what it is aimed at. No save. No magic resistance. The only thing that can blcok a Primal Blast is a Primal Shield.

Primal Shield: Like a Globe of Invulnerability, but it is totally impervious to all magic and all non magic attacks. The only thing that can damage a Primal Shield is Primal Energy (such as with a Primal Blast).

Then gods are "statted" with a factor of how much primal energy they can throw around every day. Sure, gods don't need days, but games do, so there you have it.

For example, a major deity might have 10,000 daily points of Primal Energy, compared to a mortal human who has 0 points of Primal Energy, or a Demigod who might have 1,000 points.

A single point of Primal Energy is just a tiny spark to a god, enough to do 1d6 HP damage to a living mortal. A greater god could throw around bolts of energy that do hundreds or even thousands of d6 damage if they want. No save. No resistance.

In this kind of setting, gods can be killed, but only by depleting their Primal Base Energy (this is not their daily use energy, but it is a permanent base generated by things like followers, temples, domains they control, planes they control, etc.). So to kill a god, you have to deplete his followers, destroy his temples, take away his domains and planes. Once you do enough of that, his base Primal Energy is very low, which also limits his daily use. Then you blast away the rest of it using your own Primal Energy.

So only gods (or similar immortals) can kill gods.

This doesn't mean players cannot "Ascend" to divinity, and gain their own Primal Base and Primal Energy.

Such a new ascended godling is pretty puny compared to a fully grown god. Now the new godling should try to attract followers, build temples, claim a plane of existence as his own (clear out enemies, mold the plane to match his desires, etc.), and claim a domain of his own (Sun, fire, good, evil, magic, death, etc. - if some other entity has a claim on it, then you can't have it unless you take it away from him through a holy war). Claim more than one plane or domain - as many as you can get.

This all builds up your Primal Base and makes you a more powerful deity.

Campaigns at this level can be really fun. It makes godling players back to being little fish in a big divine pond, and everything starts over with new skills, new powers, new challenges.

But, no PC can kill a god. Can't even hurt him.

I think gods should be out of reach of mortals. Mortals have to transcent mortality to challenge even the weakest gods.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I like the Eberronian gods. They can't be killed because they don't exist.

I like Moorcockian gods which are simply very powerful beings. One can kill them if one can amass a greater power. In the fiction this involves artefacts and the like but in a D&D universe I rather like the idea of simply outlevelling them and killing them with brute power. For example a god might be a 25th level epic character so a party of level 27 PCs should be able to off him without difficulty.

I like gods in Conan. Anything which is worshipped is a god - a demon, a con-artist, a mouldy old skull. All equally divine.

I dislike always-better-than-you beings who wander the world and keep getting in the faces of the PCs. Smacks of the worst sort of power trip GMing.

 

[Stormtalon]

I've got a fledgling idea that is almost the opposite of the whole "kill the gods" idea: the power of the old gods has been diminished in many areas by a ruthless inquisition spearheaded by a cabal of men who aim to replace the gods entirely. The old gods hold sway only in remote bordertowns, where the inquisition has yet to take hold, and have begun to choose mortal champions to slowly help them regain their strength and push back the inquisitors. Eventually, by level 30 or so, the PCs may themselves merge or become avatars of the old gods, depending on how well they fare against the cabal.

 

[baradtgnome]

IMC gods will stay beyond the reach of mortals. I don't need stats. I agree that it is easier to just not use them if added.

I can see why others would want them, and have no issue with that. In certain campaign types eventually acending to godhood via deicide makes perfect sense. Put the gods details in their own product and let those that want the stats can buy them.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Generally, I'm for gods with stats. Though I won't use them (I prefer the "remote gods"-paradigm... where you cannot tell whether a god exists or not, e.g. Eberron)... but some will like them. In the worst case, I can use them as Uber-archfiends.

What irks me a bit: What power scale do we get? If 30th-level characters can, perhaps, have a shot at it, what does this mean for archfiends? And what power will characters possess, especially after reading that a flying carpet is probably appropriate for 18th-level characters. This means there must be an exponential increase of power during the Epic tier.

That sounds dangerously similar to current high-level number-crunchiness.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Uzzy]

I've always thought of god stats as a waste of paper. I personally don't see any need for them, even if I did run a god killing quest. The last thing I'd look at in that situation would be the stats. I would aim for a special sequence of events, maybe help from other gods, giving them weapons that can slay a god with one touch, but only ever once. The quest would be deceiving the god and getting close enough to do the deed, not knocking him down to negative HP.

Anyway. 3rd Edition Realms had god stats in the Faiths and Pantheons book, instead of the more useful information about the faiths themselves. I do hope they concentrate on that, as I'm sure more use would be found out of that information, as opposed to god stats which really will only ever be of use to a small proportion of groups who like epic level games.

 

[frankthedm]

Conan killed the Elephant in the Tower.

Well, I think the entity wanted it to happen. Plus there have been some unkillable things in the REH stories were there not?

yes, gods of mortals should be squishable by extraplanar horrors.

 

[Lackhand]

Some gods need stats, and others don't.
Greater Gods get avatars, and can't be killed, and the avatars can have stats if you like... But the God might be able to just wish you to death, so the avatar's only necessary for special occasions. The God can't be killed.

Lesser Gods don't get avatars: They just get themselves, and are somewhere beyond Epic by a level or ten; they're just barely defeatable, and only a special conjunction of events and special quests can permanently kill one.
The avatar of a Greater God should be mostly indistinguishable from a Lesser God. However, somewhere backing that high-statted being is an even *bigger* threat.

Demigods are just another flavor of epic character. A plucky band of twenty-to-thirtieth levels can take one on, or even become one, without too much worry. They die, and taste good with ketchup.
The servants of a Lesser God should look like Demigods.

 

[ruemere]

Voted HOLY COW as my opinion is not found within listed options.

In short, gods, divine stats and divine accessibility should be defined, IMHO, by a setting. Examples:

Greek pantheon
Mortals with divine blood may potentially ascend, but they can also be smitten. Specialized mortals within realm of their specialization may exceed divine entities. Relations of divine beings to mortals are subject to greatly exaggerated humane traits of divine beings.
Bellerofont and Icarus - mortals punished for their impunity. Hercules, semidivine being, regularly wins contests of strength against semidivine and divine beings.

Celestial bureaucracy
All beings are sorted according to their status. By following fixed rules or careful plotting or following path of enlightment, the raise of status is granted and beings switch places.
Monkey King from Journey to the West is a good example of a character born to such setting.

Distant divinities
Divine beings are more akin to concepts or archetypes. Heroes following in their steps are creating their own archetypes, possibly becoming saints. There is no point of contact between mortals or heroic/epic protagonists and divine entities other than cryptic visions or brief visits from divine messengers.
No examples here... I'm sure everyone can come up with one on their own.

No god but man
Gods are gone/nonexistent. Sentient beings are free to follow their whims as there is no eternal reward/punishment to follow them. Tradition, culture, upbringing, respect of one's peers are everything. Acts of rebellion and/or nihilistic outlook are part of a greater scheme, as are anarchy and various philosophical systems. Heroes are pinnacles of accomplishment, as their deeds define ethics and set standards to follow.
This is a bit difficult setting to execute, since concepts of good/evil are strongly relativistic.
Paul Verhoeven's film, Flesh & Blood, should provide your with a prime example of such environment.

Gods in opposition to mortals
Divine entities are in opposition to mortals. They are incomprehensible, terrifying or uncaring beings, who view mortals are toys, opponents or things. Definition of right and wrong is strongly skewed by perspective of involved parties, acts of godslaying and betrayal are staples of history. Alliances are formed out of convenience and are of temporary nature.
Moorcockian Eternal Champion cycle, Lovecraft's Cthulhu, WFRP setting are prime examples of vastly differing approaches to this proposal. Divine beings are within mortal's grasp, but ultimately, winning or coexisting with them, takes a heavy toll on protagonists, as by conquering or getting "stronger", characters are effectively leaving their humanity behind.


Summarizing, the role and scope of divine involvement should dictate whether divine status is assailable or available to mortals. The system should simply support either option.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[WyzardWhately]

I like having the stats. There is nothing in my campaign world that CANNOT be defeated, given strength enough and time. If I want to make the gods harder to kill, I can say the stats are for their avatar, and the PCs will have to wipe out worship of that being from at least one prime material plane in order to permanently destroy them. Seems like a suitably epic quest, if they've got the stones for it they ought be able to try.