The Mortal God

[Imban]

I'm down with god stats...

(and this is important)

for D&D.

There's a grand epic legendary tradition of mortal gods and half-mortal heroes and slain near-gods and the like. D&D can and should support that mythic arc.

What I'm interested in is if this edition will be the first one where adventuring groups actually DO take down gods, as more than just exercise in the "Whoa" factor.

Taking down gods was something high-level PCs could do all throughout 1E, and it happened in a good few published 2E adventures as well. So no, it won't be the first edition where deicide comes up.

 

[howandwhy99]

Print stats for those who want to buy 'em.

Gods are what you want anyway.

Personally, I'll still shy away from adventures with PCs killing Gods.

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

I would be sanguine about it if the PCs had to take extraordinary measures, undergo a whole array of adventures to find the appropriate artifacts, destroying their most holy sites & relics and finding some way of stripping away at least some of their divine power before challenging them (eg. the Obelisk, the Earth Stone, etc.). That could be a worthy final adventure for 30th level characters (and possibly used as a means for their own ascension).

Protect Caravan, Clear dungeon, find out who killed Vallance, bring down local cult, stop a loose demon, rescue the city from a supernatural attack/catastrophe, find more information about the reason of the catastrophe, bring down the cultist responsible for it, hunt down the devil/demon/dragon behind it. That should cover the first 20 levels of the campaign. The next 10 levels become already difficult to guess for me, but I assume it involves a lot of plane-hopping, securing nations, manipulating the gods, and if the culmination is bringing down an evil god, I am fine with it.

I am with both you guys... I would like to see awfully huge stats for Demon Lords/Archdevils/Archangels/Demigods and even awfuller ones for deities... But going after one of these guys should be an epic, 30 level, campaign-ending-with-a-bang, final adventure.

 

[TerraDave]

This i like. Though I also like the idea of Level / CR 10 or so divine beings, killable if you can get through thier 'cult'.

Years ago, the PCs did have to make a huge journey, get special help, with the artifact that they got with huge effort in previous adventures, infilltrating the army of worg-ridding goblins, getting pass their shamans, penetrating the challenges of the ancient temple, and then confronting the very powerfull wolf spirit and doing the key thing with the artifact.

And they just pulled it off (in-spite some of them turning into werewolves, didn't mention the werewolves? anyways). They destroyed the spirit (at least the bad part), and cut those shamans off from their spells. So basically they "killed a god".

And they where like 8th level.

 

[The Little Raven]

Stats, definitely. The Belgariad is one of my favorite series of all time, and having the easily used option of a sinister god as my BBEG is definitely something I want.

 

[Geoffrey]

I voted "Gods can be permanently destroyed. Stats needed, as is someway to destroy the being."

That's what D&D gods are for: killing.

 

[The Human Target]

I prefer the Eberron model where gods are distant, unknowable, and may not even exist at all.

That said, I have no problem with a 30th level character deciding he wants to supplant the God of War either.

edit: it all depends on the campaign. Since it's easier to remove than to add, I vote "stats needed".

I am becoming a fan of the Malazan Book of the Fallen series of books by Steven Erikson. In those books, deities can definitely be challenged, and defeated, and even killed. I am in favor of making that possible in D&D. It's truly epic!

I agree with both of these. I prefer my gods distant and possibly not even real, unless its a specific campaign setting feature.

I just don't want the gods to have stats in the core three books, nor do I want the stats to be as freaking complicated as they were in 3E.

I'd also like to have some freaking information on the religions of the gods in the core books or a splat book, since thats way more useful.

 

[Cyronax]

We have had a few hints (actually more then hints) that 4thed will, at some point, feature statted up gods, all ready for a fighting, and maybe even killing.

This has a long history in D&D. What do you think?

The OP has a good point.

Gary Gygax himself envisioned that at least some gods could be killed. Take the original Temple of Elemental Evil (ToEE) for instance. St. Cuthbert and Iuz the Old One are themselves given stats and appear before the PCs before leaves to hash out their business elsewhere.

In a campaign where the gods are not distant concepts (i.e. Eberron), the 4e D&D does truly harken back to 1e D&D.

Again, look to ToEE and the Greyhawk 1983 Boxed Set):

14 Greater Gods

39 Lesser Gods (of which most are local with very narrowly defined portfolios)

5 Demigods

Countless demonic princes and archdevils scattered around a number of adventures and monster manuals.

In 1e, St. Cuthbert was considered a lesser god. So by 4e's hintage, we now are returning to the Greater, Lesser, Demi power levels (as has been posted in several places elsewhere).

I feel that demigods and lesser gods are fair game for mortal PCs. Perhaps the Greater Gods, incuding such aloof, primal gods as Tharizdun, Boccob, or Pelor should be fair game is the PCs manage to wrest lesser divine status for themselves.

Of course, that would be a truly post-paragon level scenario.

In the end, I don't see the controversy. Hopefully the 4e books will explicitly give new DMs guidance for the Eberron vs. traditional D&D style possibilities for divine mortality.

C.I.D.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I think you might have stats on how you would go about killing a god, but not stats on the godhead itself.

Exalted has a decent model, though maybe not questy enough for DnD, where you can't touch some of the upper echelon demons, but they do have 'avatars' of their hearts and souls running around. And those you can kill.

Maybe not enough to take the thing out, but certainly enough to depose it.

I wouldn't mind a mechanic like that. One where the means by which you can intervene in a god's portfolio are spelled out precisely.

 

[glass]

I prefer the Eberron model where gods are distant, unknowable, and may not even exist at all.

That said, I have no problem with a 30th level character deciding he wants to supplant the God of War either.

edit: it all depends on the campaign. Since it's easier to remove than to add, I vote "stats needed".

What he said.


glass.