The Myth of the Bo9S's Popularity

[KarinsDad]

Put that in context, please.

This is your great grandfather who read the Iliad, Beowulf, and perhaps ER Eddison's Worm Ouroborous?

Yeah, he'd think the special effects are "magical," but the actual deeds might simply seem "heroic."

We are talking the abilities here.

His idea of heroic deeds or abilities would be Conan's or Doc Savage's (i.e. within the realm of possible), not Jet Li Magic Boy's (i.e. within the realm of fantastical beyond belief). At that level, it's called magic (or even superheroic). As are some of Beowulf's deeds.

Look up the definition of magic. It's all about supernatural abilities. In other words, abilities BEYOND NATURAL. If you consider Wuxia abilities not beyond natural, you have an unusual definition of that word. They are supernatural (i.e. magical) all the way.

Also, where did the "did not even wave his sword" thing come from? Are you watching the same video I am?

Yes, watch carefully. When he gets on the roof, there is one scene where he just stands there and hardly moves his sword at all and about 50 arrows "bounce off" with nothing deflecting them.

In fact, there are quite a few scenes where arrows bounce away without the sword (or her silk) getting near them.

 

[Benimoto]

Look up the definition of magic. It's all about supernatural abilities. In other words, abilities BEYOND NATURAL. If you consider Wuxia abilities not beyond natural, you have an unusual definition of that word. They are supernatural (i.e. magical) all the way.

I don't know that that's necessarily true. The whole idea behind the wuxia thing is that by studying martial arts a long time, you might refine your techniques to such a degree that you do things that are impossible for the untrained.

There's nothing explicitly magical about them, usually. The character doesn't have a wizard cast a spell on them, despite the fact there there are usually wizards in the stories as well. If you define magic as everything beyond natural then I think you're casting too wide a net.

Plus, where do you draw the line? In some versions of the Arthurian legend, Excalibur was so strong that by the end of the story Arthur is cutting people in half directly through their helmet and armor. Is that wuxia, or is it just because Arthur has a magical sword?

 

[JohnSnow]

Look up the definition of magic. It's all about supernatural abilities. In other words, abilities BEYOND NATURAL. If you consider Wuxia abilities not beyond natural, you have an unusual definition of that word. They are supernatural (i.e. magical) all the way.

Okay, what about this? Can a normal person break stone, rock, or wooden beams by smacking them with their bare hands? Can they break an iron bar on their heads? Can they support their body on six spear points without them piercing their skin? Most people would say "no, they can't."

But Kung Fu masters in the real world can do all of these things. These are seemingly supernatural feats which can be demonstrated today.

Ponder that.

And as far as european myths being limited to "realistic" leaps goes, I could bring up Cu Chullain's "salmon leap," but that seems too easy...

I think it's largely a matter of flavor. It'll be interesting to see what abilities "martial" characters get, and at what levels.

You can find some info about a trick archer named Howard Hill from the 1930s & '40s who could accomplish feats most people would find hard to swallow - shooting quarters out of mid-air at 30 paces, cutting strings with his arrows, and so forth. That's obviously not supernatural, but it's really flipping impressive.

The video is "Cavalcade of Archery" (1945), which is included on the recently released 2-disc special edition of The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938). Hill performed the brillian arrow stunts in the movie, which is why he's on the disc.

 

[The Little Raven]

Henry is talking about non-plausible martial mega-powers at first level.

Oh, that's funny, because I thought he was talking about Star Wars Saga Edition 1st-level characters, like he said in what I quoted.

Like swinging an axe and having 5 NPCs fly back 30 feet through the air and falling prone.

A first level Saga character cannot do this. Y'know what a first level Saga Soldier can do? Increase his Max Dex Bonus on armor by +1... +2 bonus to grapple checks... make a check to notice who is at half-hp or lower... pistol whip someone... get a +1 bonus to damage on all melee attacks... and the worst part? He has to pick ONE of those he can do.

Or healing an ally without using magic.

Hit points are an abstract that represent more than just physical damage, else they'd have a more serious effect on combat, since real physical damage hampers your ability to perform actions in real life.

Or forcing enemies to attack him as opposed to the Wizard with the opponents not having any sort of Will Save against it.

Oh, you must be talking about that level 27 paladin ability, which does actually take their Will Defense into account... which affects 1st-level characters in what way?

...

So, I'm still waiting to see what about 1st-level Saga characters is so over-the-top, because it's obviously not in the book I'm holding.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't know that that's necessarily true. The whole idea behind the wuxia thing is that by studying martial arts a long time, you might refine your techniques to such a degree that you do things that are impossible for the untrained.

There's nothing explicitly magical about them, usually. The character doesn't have a wizard cast a spell on them, despite the fact there there are usually wizards in the stories as well. If you define magic as everything beyond natural then I think you're casting too wide a net.

Wuxia has evolved into a superhero type of thing where abilites are no longer natural or even quasi-natural. Hence, it is now in the realm of supernatural (or magical) abilities.

Magic is when something is accomplished which cannot be done via natural forces or abilities.

If you saw Wuxia in the real world, you would be shocked and awed and consider it magical based on your frame of reference. No different than when a street magician pulls one off on someone. In this case, it's a natural ability, but it seems magical.

But, Wuxia (as depicted in the movies) are not really natural abilities (i.e. real world natural abilities). One cannot use a "studying martial arts a long time, you might refine your techniques to such a degree that you do things that are impossible for the untrained" explanation to explain what is seen in the movies without suspending disbelief to do so.

One never had to suspend disbelief in DND for natural martial abilities until higher levels. Low level Monks could not heal themselves and fall great distances without magic.

Do you consider Wuxia as depicted in the movies as trained natural real world abilities? Within the context of the story, belief can be suspended to do so, but DND should not have such a "context of the story" as its default low level setting. Sure, a given DM can tell his players to suspend belief for his specific campaign setting, but this level of supernatural capability and extreme suspension of disbelief should not be the default for low level PCs. That's not DND flavor.

This is like Eberron discussions. If magic exists in the world, it would be considered science and people would use it to solve everyday problems. Well, that's not DND flavor either, regardless of WotC releasing the setting. When magic becomes science, it is no longer special and unique. When martial abilities duplicate magical abilities, magic is no longer special and unique.

Just another super power. Yawn.

Plus, where do you draw the line? In some versions of the Arthurian legend, Excalibur was so strong that by the end of the story Arthur is cutting people in half directly through their helmet and armor. Is that wuxia, or is it just because Arthur has a magical sword?

I draw the line at low level DND characters doing Wuxia-like supernatural yet explained as non-magical martial deeds.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Wuxia has evolved into a superhero type of thing where abilites are no longer natural or even quasi-natural.

I think your limit for "natural" is much, much more demanding than most humans' limit, throughout history, especially in regards to the legends and mythos that D&D draws from.

"Magic" is not a hard-and-fast category, and neither is "natural." A disease is considered magic. Spearing a group of warriors like a shish-kebab, is considered natural (if, you know, out of the realm of Joe Anybody). Winning a basketball game is kind of magical (thanking Jesus and all that). Having a baby, magical. Making the statue of liberty disappear, though, is natural. Everything done in a Die Hard movie, natural.

There's no hard-and-fast rule. It's kind of a continuum, and it's full of gaps and exceptions that will be different for different people. Speaking to the legendary history that D&D kind of emulates, wuxia stunts are (mostly) natural, if amazing, abilities of amazingly heroic characters. They don't call powers from the other world, they just push their own bodies past the point that most could endure (jumping REALLY FAR, running REALLY FAST, etc.). Fireballs and the like are supernatural, calling powers from beyond to be commanded by the expert wielder.

You can't expect 20th level D&D characters to be constrained by the same limits as JoeBob the Town Guardsman in terms of physical capabilities, right?

 

[Nifft]

But, Wuxia (as depicted in the movies) are not really natural abilities (i.e. real world natural abilities). One cannot use a "studying martial arts a long time, you might refine your techniques to such a degree that you do things that are impossible for the untrained" explanation to explain what is seen in the movies without suspending disbelief to do so.

Sure, but no more than one must suspend disbelief while watching Rambo or Die Hard.

Crashing through glass without bleeding profusely = magic, right?

Cheers, -- N

 

[The Little Raven]

You can't expect 20th level D&D characters to be constrained by the same limits as JoeBob the Town Guardsman in terms of physical capabilities, right?

Actually, a sizable group do seem to think this... well, except when it comes to spellcasters, since they should be superior to all other classes because they use magic.

 

[Henry]

Actually, a sizable group do seem to think this... well, except when it comes to spellcasters, since they should be superior to all other classes because they use magic.

Exactly.

In the Hero example (which is a good example to use), their deflection of arrows in that shot totally blows away all thought that what they're doing is anything but magical; in an anti-magic field, they shouldn't be doing any of that. On the other hand, let's take another example -- a hero being thrown through a plate glass window without being cut to ribbons -- I could believe it a lot more readily happening in an anti-magic field.

The Hero example of those two characters deflecting THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of arrows is nothing short of use of the supernatural; The whole Beowulf thing I can't see, either, but then, I'm not talking Beowulf, or even Roland splitting people stem to stern in one blow. I'm talking heroics in the vein of the Conan movies, or even the original Star Wars films, which are still impossible (Luke doing the whole tow-cable up to the AT-AT and taking it out with one bomb after crash-landing and almost getting squished? Yeah, right) but still bend the physics without abandoning them completely.

Yes, it's a matter of personal taste; I don't think anyone disputes that. But I do disagree if someone insinuates they don't see any difference in magic use between, say, The Musketeer's derring-do moves versus Hero's arrow deflections.

 

[KarinsDad]

Oh, that's funny, because I thought he was talking about Star Wars Saga Edition 1st-level characters, like he said in what I quoted.

...

A first level Saga character cannot do this. Y'know what a first level Saga Soldier can do? Increase his Max Dex Bonus on armor by +1... +2 bonus to grapple checks... make a check to notice who is at half-hp or lower... pistol whip someone... get a +1 bonus to damage on all melee attacks... and the worst part? He has to pick ONE of those he can do.

A first level Saga Soldier can get hit 3 or 4 times by blaster pistol fire (with Second Wind) and still be standing.

A first level Saga Scoundrel can hack a secure computer (at a level of science that would be about 30th+ century on our world, and if you hadn't noticed, it is getting more difficult for people in the real world to hack secure systems these days, not easier). This is pure fantasy at that level of technology.

A first level Saga Noble can make an ally act faster than the ally could ever do on his own.

A first level Saga Scout can avoid damage from an explosion that targets his area, regardless of whether there is anything to hide behind. Do you know how fast high tech explosions are? How devastating?

All of this is fairly fantastical, but supposedly natural abilities in SWSE. And the reason is because it's fantasy opera. Nothing wrong with that in a fantasy opera the heroes are supposed to almost always succeed setting, but it is more fantastical than DND ever was at first level. PCs in SWSE do not need Force powers to do non-plausible things at first level.

Every first level Saga character is capable of healing himself more in SWSE than most non-magical mid-level PCs in DND can do without special items. The natural (i.e. non-force user) SWSE first level PCs can do some non-natural abilities. Most first level historical natural (i.e. non-spell caster) DND PCs could not. It typically took higher levels.

Every first level Saga PC can change the probability of the Universe with Force Points and Destiny Points. Bad roll? Reroll with your feats. Not high enough? Throw some mystical bonus on it. About to die? Prevent it and just fall unconscious. Every PC can use the Force that much.

Special abilities like self healing and great odds at doing things were typically gained in DND (by going up levels), not automatically granted. It's a different fantasy mindset. More space opera and less dangerous sword and sorcery.

DND fun is now equated to "powers for everyone" and entitlement to things like "strong protection against death", instead of reward for effort.

So, I'm still waiting to see what about 1st-level Saga characters is so over-the-top, because it's obviously not in the book I'm holding.

Have you even played the game?

1st level Saga PCs are pretty much immune to death in SWSE. Sounds pretty over the top to me. This is fine for a space opera setting or a superhero setting, but it will be totally lame for DND. It just plain is not that type of genre.