The Myth of the Bo9S's Popularity

[Steely Dan]

And we still have death at -10 hp

The -10 rule dying/stabilization rule is still in 4th Ed?

If that's the case, I will be severely bummed, I have always thought the -10 dying rule is one of the clunkiest pieces of crap going in the game.

 

[Mercule]

That's because you've been trained by the visual language of Western film to accept it.

Exactly.

That is my cultural reference and what I want my fantasy gaming to adhere to. Conveniently enough, D&D pretty much always has over the entire course of its life.

I'm not saying that anyone who wants to have their definition of "magic" vs. "martial" adhere to a more Eastern reference is a sicko or a flake or anything else -- though the reverse implication seems to get made often enough.

All I'm saying is that I play a game that has served my genre well for 30+ years and I think it's fair to expect it to continue to do so. D&D should not be expected to serve wuxia/anime tropes. If those can be added in without interfering with the default Western (including pulp, sword and sorcery, and other non-real world sub genres) "feel" of the game, then I'm all for including them. If not, then I'd prefer to keep those influences out.

Again, that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with Eastern culture or games based on wuxia concepts. It doesn't even mean that I wouldn't play a wuxia game (I'd probably try one, but I doubt it'd hold my interest for long). It just means that I don't like chocolate in my peanut butter.

 

[I'm A Banana]

All I'm saying is that I play a game that has served my genre well for 30+ years and I think it's fair to expect it to continue to do so.

I don't think so. D&D is about pop fantasy hodgepodge, not about specific genre emulation (though you can often overlay genre emulation on top of it with enough house rules). As the world changes, as fantasy changes, as D&D's target audience (middle school through college kids) changes their interests, D&D must change to match, or become a relic.

I don't really lay claim to a genre of fantasy as "mine." I enjoy most things, which is probably why I really delight in switching campaign settings once every year or two. Now gothic horror, now monster survival, now Age of Exploration, now Swords & Sorcery, now Grim & Gritty, now Anime Cartoony.

D&D shouldn't cater to what was popular 10-20-30 years ago. It should give people the option of creating the *current* fantasy archetypes. Now, I think that they don't have to get rid of the old stuff, either (the fact that characters still can and probably will continue to regularly and steadily actually die, to be replaced by new characters, is evidence of that. Even if it's rare, it will happen). But I don't think that emulating a specific genre that was popular 20 years ago is D&D's goal, and I don't think it should be D&D's goal.

I think it could easily be the goal of a D&D or 3rd party supplement, though, and you bet your arse I'd be there to play it.

 

[Cadfan]

I suspect that when Fighters can Fly with Martial Powers in 4E, overly powerful combos like this might start becoming possible. I hope not, but this combo slipped into Psionics.

My snark-meter is busted. I can't figure out whether to put you on ignore for this comment or not, because I can't tell whether you're serious, whether you're satirizing someone, if so who you're satirizing, or the nature of the satire.

 

[Cadfan]

I do not disagree. My concern is with the "bigger, better, badder" aspect of recent WotC products. My concern is that low level DND 4E PC martial types will have magical powers. Like, short distance dimension door type powers or 10 foot leaps and such. They are already given the equivalent of self healing.

Emphasis added.

If the short distance dimension door type power is a racial ability, is this a problem? Did you have similar problems with gnomes getting spell like abilities, even if their class was martial in nature?

 

[Piratecat]

I have the sneaking suspicion that the 3rd party equivalent of Badaxe Games' Grim Tales or Capellan's Iron Heroes is going to sell really well after the 4e OGL comes out. A lot of people like the idea of gritty games, and it'll be fun to see the 4e mechanics applied to this genre.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Here I have to disagree.

Weaker abilities are irrelevant in released material. They can be ignored. My players take some of them on occasion due to the interest factor, but they are not game breaking.

Stronger abilities are often game breaking. That's the key difference. And a lot of time, it is due to synergy of other abilities.

As an example, let's take something simple like Crystal Shard. 1D6 per Power Point of damage, ranged touch attack.

Sounds harmless enough. Until one combines it with four feats:

Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot, Greater Psionic Shot, Psionic Meditation

This can occur at level 7 for a Wilder. Sure, it used up a lot of feats. But it is a combo that allows the Wilder to shoot 5D6 ranged touch attacks that have very few defenses nearly every round for a single PP.

Well, to use your own comparison, a 7th level warlock can shoot 4d6 ranged touch attacks every round. It costs zero feats. Four feats for +1d6 is hardly anything to be concerned about. The crystal shard is not affected by SR, but with one or two of those four feats, the warlock could get Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.

At 7th level. For 50+ rounds per day. If the Wilder faces a real powerful opponent, s/he can boost it to 14D6. 14D6 with few defenses will take out or seriously damage most opponents a 7th level Wilder will face.

The warlock can also boost his blast by taking Sudden Empower and/or Sudden Maximize. Also, to improve his damage output, he can take Eldritch Chain, and thereby damage multiple opponents.

Levitate up (which has a long enough duration to last several encounters) for 3 PP and then blast away until nothing is left standing. At higher level, use Empower instead against tough foes and use this with low PP against weaker foes.

Fell Flight for zero PP, and you don't have to touch the ground at all, all day long.

Compare that to the Warlock. 4D6 instead of 5D6. He can throw Invocations on his blasts, but then again, the Wilder has powers similar to Invocations. And, the Warlock cannot boost it to 14D6.

Sure, the Warlock can do it all day long. But, 3.5 DND is not a game of all day long. It's a game of (typically a maximum of) 3 to 5 encounters of maybe 3 to 8 rounds each. The Wilder has the same amount of longevity as the Warlock for all intents and purposes, but has the Big Gun that the Warlock would have difficulty matching.

To play in this sandbox, the Warlock could choose similar options. If he takes a Psionic race and these same four feats, he too can boost his Eldritch Blast. At 7th level, he does 8D6. Double his normal damage output and he can put Invocations on it still. The only difference (IIRC, I do not have my book in front of me), is that Spell Resistance applies for the Warlock and his range is better. For the Wilder, SR does not apply.

Yup. Looks more or less even to me. A pile of feats versus slightly less base damage and less ability to nova, even ignoring per-day limits, which do often come into consideration once the wilder starts to pull out his fully augmented shots. He gets only 5 or six of those per day, if he does nothing else, and will run out well before 3 to 5 encounters of 3 to 8 rounds each has passed if he's not careful. Once he's done, he's done. The warlock gets less nova ability (it's tied to his Sudden feats), but he simply does not run out of juice no matter what he does.

Btw, I am not saying that this is a game breaking combination.

So, why did you post this after your comments about game-breaking synergies as though this were an example of such?

I suspect that when Fighters can Fly with Martial Powers in 4E, overly powerful combos like this might start becoming possible. I hope not, but this combo slipped into Psionics.

I thought you said this wasn't supposed to be a game-breaking combo.

I don't expect anyone will be doing much flying in 4E. They've said somewhere that they plan to remove effects that allow characters to completely avoid interesting terrain or dungeon designs. The focus seems to be on tactical relocation, rather than altered movement modes. Expect lots of short-range, line-of-effect teleporting, but little flight or teleporting through objects.

 

[Mercule]

I don't think so. D&D is about pop fantasy hodgepodge, not about specific genre emulation (though you can often overlay genre emulation on top of it with enough house rules).

Yes and no. You are correct about the hodgepodge, but D&D has had a range of sub-genres that it services well. It does so with few house rules, actually.

I've said repeatedly that I don't have any problem with new editions or supplements adding to the range of sub-genres that it can effectively handle. My concern is that it is possible to swing too and render the sub-genres that D&D has historically handled well to be difficult, at best, to emulate. That might be because rules decisions almost require high level fighters to take wuxia-like powers. It might be because an abundance of feat/power names in the PHB (etc.) are "Easterny", giving an implied flavor to the core rules. It might be because the art is weighted toward big eyes/small mouth and spiky hair/big swords.

I don't know that any of these are going to happen in 4E. Actually, I rather suspect they won't. Even the occasional "Golden Wyvern" type name won't spoil the flavor, overall.

Right now, my main frustration is with people who want anime or wuxia-flavored D&D. Some people are nice and polite and just say, "Gosh, wouldn't it be great if D&D handled my favorite style of fantasy, too." Far too many, though, seem bent on telling me that it's impossible to have fighters competitive with wizards at high levels without magic, that something isn't magic unless it involves a wizard casting spells, that I must love wizards and want to see fighters suffer because I don't like wuxia powers, that I'd like wuxia if I gave it a chance, that I'm just a grognard, that wuxia is the only way to keep D&D afloat, etc.

Once again, I think it'd be great if 4E supports both (all?) styles of play well. If there's doubt, though, I'm going to go with not throwing out the legacy feel.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

In plate mail. While winded. while carrying a longsword and a shield.

While having a 25+ strength and constitution. Lets also consider that plate mail was used, historically, for roughly the lifespan of a single dwarven smith. Presumably dwarves have been making plate mail for many generations, yes? I mean, "realistically", it should be weightless power armor by now.

 

[Oldtimer]

If he has Extra Second Wind, even with your scenario and average damage rolls, he could take 4 shots in a combat.

If he has Tough As Nails, even with your scenario and average damage rolls, he could take 4 shots in a combat.

If he has Extra Second Wind and Tough As Nails, even with your scenario and average damage rolls, he could take 5 shots in a combat. With this and a 17 Con, he could take 6 shots in a combat. 33 - 13.5 - 13.5 + 17 - 13.5 + 17 - 13.5 + 17 - 13.5 - 13.5 = 3. An 18 Con would result in 7 hits left over.

This is not correct, since you can only use Second Wind once per encounter.

Edit: Just realized there was yet another page to this thread, where this already had been mentioned.