The nature of High/Low Magic

[pdkoning]

(...)D&D is a ruleset designed purely and simply to facilitate what most gamers want to do, most of the time: adventure. The most common style of play is to go into dungeons, kill monsters, and take their stuff. (...)

That sounds like munchkin (the game)

Now back on topic: I prefer low-magic games from a player point of view. Trying to climb a wall and falling down gives a much more 'adventuring' feel than the wizard who simply flies over the wall, and takes all his party members with him.
I think that high magic makes skills (and some challenges the DM invented) useless. I am happy I am going to play in a world where (evil) clerics rule the world, an do not accept other clerics, and arcane magic is officially forbidden. Here my rogue will be useful.

OTOH, As a DM it is just cool to teleport you players away, or mess with them with lots of magic.

 

[Belegbeth]

The term "low magic" is vague. There are two ways of understanding this term. One is "low frequency" magic -- i.e. magic is exceedingly rare. Maybe there are only three wizards in the entire kingdom (but one is 18th level). The other is "low power" magic. Maybe there are no spells higher than 5th level in the world. Of course, a campaign can be both "rare" and "low power" in its approach to magic. (And the rarer magic is, the more powerful even "low level" magic seems.) Middle-earth is both "low power" and "rare" in magic (by DnD standards), whereas Vance's Lyonesse novels are "high power" but "rare" in magic (there are a few extremely powerful mages who check each other's influence).

The problem with default 3.x DnD is that magic is both relatively common and relatively powerful. Relative to most fantasy literature, that is. Hence, as the original poster noted, it may be possible for experienced DnD DMs and players to create drama and tension with standard DnD magic, but it will not be the kind of drama and tension that can be found in most fantasy literature. Hence the charge that DnD is exceedingly self-referential. Really, the default level for magic in a standard DnD campaign makes it commonplace ("nonmagical," and rather utilitarian, in feel) for PCs and important NPCs. Consequently, DnD is a pseudo "sci-fi" game in which magic plays the role of technology; dwarves, etc. the role of friendly aliens; orcs, etc. the role of unfriendly aliens; and so forth. Nothing wrong with that! But it is not fantasy, at least as found in most literature.

My own preference for "rare magic" campaigns is simple: (1) such campaigns more closely resemble the fantasy literature that I love (and that my players love); and (2) by keeping magic rare, I can keep it "mysterious" and strange -- i.e. "magical" -- in nature.

 

[hong]

Hence, as the original poster noted, it may be possible for experienced DnD DMs and players to create drama and tension with standard DnD magic, but it will not be the kind of drama and tension that can be found in most fantasy literature.

Piffle. Drama is drama. Tension is tension. People are people. The trappings may change, but the human elements are what you make of them.

Hence the charge that DnD is exceedingly self-referential. Really, the default level for magic in a standard DnD campaign makes it commonplace ("nonmagical," and rather utilitarian, in feel) for PCs and important NPCs. Consequently, DnD is a pseudo "sci-fi" game in which magic plays the role of technology; dwarves, etc. the role of friendly aliens; orcs, etc. the role of unfriendly aliens; and so forth. Nothing wrong with that! But it is not fantasy, at least as found in most literature.

Piffle. My Britannia 3E campaign features plenty of high-flying action, teleporting mages and fireballs everywhere, and yet I have no trouble conceiving of it as mythic fantasy in the purest sense. Campaign tone is what you make of it.

 

[pawsplay]

I grew up on Greyhawk and Mystara. You couldn't just buy magic items in shops. At best, you might be able to purchase a few from a high level adventurer or wizard or King, assuming he happened to have something you wanted. A +3 longsword was effectively priceless if you didn't have anything better to replace it with.

 

[hong]

I grew up on Greyhawk and Mystara. You couldn't just buy magic items in shops. At best, you might be able to purchase a few from a high level adventurer or wizard or King, assuming he happened to have something you wanted. A +3 longsword was effectively priceless if you didn't have anything better to replace it with.

Note that nothing in the books mandates the existence of "magic shops". Yes, there are rules for how much a +3 sword would cost if you could buy one, but that doesn't necessitate their actually being available for sale. That said, when the creeping HEROization of D&D is complete, item creation will be obsolete, thus making the issue moot.

 

[Fenes]

I am also in the camp of "rare magic", for several reasons:

1. I am a lazy DM. I don't want to spend hours preparing a session just to properly challenge characters numerous magic items, spells and abilities and to make sure I don't overlook some easy way out of a problem. I don't want to trick out every opponent with magic just to make them competive. Having magic rare in my campaigns and certain spells banned means it is much easier for me to prepare an adventure, and that I can focus on the plot and NPCs, not on the stats.

2. I am greedy DM. I want to have as many adventure possibilities and challenges at my disposal as possible - I don't want to be forced to either drop staple adventures and challenges (f.e. travel to X, climb over the wall) or to use the "plot preservation nerf device" (teleport won't work in this case, there is an anti magic aura around the wall) excessively. I don't want to have to resort to "standard tactics" each fight or assault (like dispel magic on buffed party, amulet of nondetetction for spies). Having magic be rare in my campaigns makes it easier to vary the challenges and events. I can have the group captured more easily, present them with more challenges they can't just solve with a wave of their hand or wand, and don't have to back up any kingdom with tons of spellcasters just to keep it intact.

3. I am a cinematic DM. I know how I want my campaign to look and feel like, I know what kind of battles I want. I don't want "MagicTech" land, where you just replace science with magic, and have a modern feel to the place. I don't want the PCs to be the sole "magicTech" users either, which tons of magic stuff at their disposal, battling equally equipped small numbers of foes. That reminds me far too much of superhero comics, where there are cyborgs and space ships for the elite few but the world at large remains unchanged, with people, even important ones who could afford it, remaining crippled, and the population having our tech level, even the military and police mostly.
I want a campaign world where magic, at least higher magic, is rare, yet not domineering. Where PCs can be heroes wielding a few magic items with rich histories, but are defined through their skills and abilities, not their gear. A world where castles make sense, since flying mounts or monsters are not common and teleport very rare. A world where you don't ask yourself why the nobles are not replaced by wizards, or why the PCs don't take over the town by force, or why they don't just simply raise dead the unintended victims of their latest fight.
I don't have my PCs fret about cost of living and such, or hunt rats to pay the rent. In fact, I drop such costs - in my current campaign, the PCs are living in luxury, and we don't count gold or such. But I do not think they need teleport, scry, 100s of spells and items and every PrC in the books to influence the politics of a kingdom or fight demon lords. When I reduce the amount of options and counters (drop the DR instead of giving everyone +X weapons, drop the number of spells around instead of giving each opponent some dispel magic lackey, drop DCs instead of adding protective items and so on) the end result is the same - a vast plot or campaign arc, or a close fight.
My Forgotten Realms are heavily modified to fit this, and - IMHO - it works out well.

 

[Aaron2]

I grew up on Greyhawk and Mystara. You couldn't just buy magic items in shops. At best, you might be able to purchase a few from a high level adventurer or wizard or King, assuming he happened to have something you wanted. A +3 longsword was effectively priceless if you didn't have anything better to replace it with.

In 1e they -said- that there were no magic shops but it didn't really matter. Those early adventures were overflowing with magic items. We were playing the Saltmarsh modules converted to 3e. The DM just gave out the magic items as listed. I was barely 3rd level and had the equipment of a 6th level character. No magic shop needed.

A +3 sword isn't priceless if you have three of them.


Aaron

 

[Urbannen]

The problem with default 3.x DnD is that magic is both relatively common and relatively powerful. Relative to most fantasy literature, that is. Hence, as the original poster noted, it may be possible for experienced DnD DMs and players to create drama and tension with standard DnD magic, but it will not be the kind of drama and tension that can be found in most fantasy literature. Hence the charge that DnD is exceedingly self-referential. Really, the default level for magic in a standard DnD campaign makes it commonplace ("nonmagical," and rather utilitarian, in feel) for PCs and important NPCs. Consequently, DnD is a pseudo "sci-fi" game in which magic plays the role of technology; dwarves, etc. the role of friendly aliens; orcs, etc. the role of unfriendly aliens; and so forth. Nothing wrong with that! But it is not fantasy, at least as found in most literature.

Wow! I've never seen it said so well. I agree. FR to me doesn't feel like "fantasy." However if I think of a human town as Mos Eisley, all of a sudden I can justify the fact that it inevitably has 6% halflings, 5% dwarves, 4% elves, 3% gnomes, 2% half-elves, and 1% half-orcs. And the local Red Wizard enclave is just selling the latest in water harvesting technology and blaster packs! (Of course, according to an English teacher I once had, Star Wars is technically fantasy because it makes no reference to Earth.)

 

[Raven Crowking]

I am in the camp of "rare magic", but I make a lot of exceptions to this rule. First off, the PCs gain their magic according to class. I've incorporated the ley line rules from Heroes of High Favor: Elves as well, so PCs actually have more personal magic available to them than in baseline D&D. Of course, this system requires checks, and there are potential pitfalls if those checks fail.

There are no magic shoppes IMC, and XP rewards are halved. The first is for feel, and the second is because I think the current "growth rate" doesn't allow PCs to fully explore what their characters can do at any given level. This does cause PCs to be less likely to spend XP on making magic items, but they do like the totem spirit/sacred bundle rules I have introduced. They are low-level now (1-3), and high level NPCs are rare enough that dead means dead. This will, of course, change.

I honestly don't believe that "rare magic" equals "low magic".

IMC, I have introduced not one, not two, but three cosmology-spanning conflicts that are pre-made for epic levels, and the characters are being introduced to them now. By telegraphing these conflicts at the beginning, I can feel relatively certain that, as my PCs grow, their involvement (both game and personal) will grow with them. When I say "cosmology-spanning", btw, I mean end-of-the-multiverse type stuff. Or, at least, the campaign multiverse. And, yes, I expect my epic-level PCs to be capable of dealing with threats of this magnitude. If not, there's always divine ascension.

IMHO, low-magic vs. high magic is about what magic can do, whereas rare-magic vs. common-magic is about how easy magic is to get. IMC, I prefer a lesser number of more powerful items. I'd rather give a +3 keen ghost-touch sword to a 1st-level fighter than 30 +1 swords. Similarly, I don't mind giving the low-level spellcaster a staff with multiple functions that he can discover over the course of a level or two. I currently have a 2nd level druid IMC whose staff can cast Ice Storm (that they know of). At the same time, because magic and gold are rare, they still haven't managed to use Identify on anything.

So, what does that make me? I'd say I'm in the "magic is rare but powerful" camp. Is that low magic? High magic? Either way, it certainly has 21+ levels of conflict designed right into it.

Raven Crowking

 

[Belegbeth]

Piffle. Drama is drama. Tension is tension. People are people. The trappings may change, but the human elements are what you make of them.

Piffle. People are people. Tautologies are tautologies. Rhetoric is rhetoric. And fantasy literature appeals to people outside of the DnD circle because the tension and drama that they describe are accessible to them. Hence most fantasy literature keeps magic rare. Hence the original poster is correct.