D&D 5E The Overwhelming Dominance of D&D is Bad for Everyone...

[cbwjm]

It seems evident from your comment you still think of gaming as something you do in person at the table. The trend line there is firmly against that view surviving this decade. Indeed, that is probably the #1 reason why we find ourselves here at this juncture right now; because it will soon no longer be true.

Not just at the table, but also online. The thing is, we don't really need much when it comes to automation.

I also don't really think playing in person at the table is really going away, I see evidence online of plenty of people who still gather in person to play while many people playing online are either too far removed to get together, or simply don't have the friend group that wants to play forcing them to look online for games.

 

[cbwjm]

I don't know if the timing is just a coincidence, but apparently Pinnacle Entertainment Group is launching their own Savage Universe.

SavageUniverse.com - SavageUniverse.com

savageuniverse.com

I do like savage worlds, it would be right up there as a game system that I'd want to run so this is cool to see. Maybe I should do some one-shots just to get my group used to other systems.

 

[Bedrockgames]

D&D itself isn't the problem, it's the over reliance of the RPG ecosystem on D&D that's the problem. The fact that ending the OGL is such a big problem for so many publishers is good evidence that the overwhelming dominance of D&D is a bad thing. If D&D was just a big fish, this wouldn't be such a problem, but since D&D is the industry that's why we're in this situation now. Ending the OGL is bad for the hobby, sure, but it's bad for the hobby because it isn't healthy to have one company be the hobby.

But I would argue this shouldn't be happening. WOTC is doing something extremely shady, potentially not legal, if they try to end the OGL. No one had any reason to believe that would happen. So I don't think what is unfolding is evidence of the problem with d20 being prime and D&D being the most popular game, but evidence of WOTC being a bad actor and doing something no one believed was legally possible

All that said, now that we have this situation, there are tons of non D&D games people can turn to. And I see people doing so. This is disrupting things. That creates opportunities and other companies are seizing those opportunities. If people want other game systems to rise the way to do that is buy them, review them, talk about them, post about them, livestream them, etc. Just look at En World: 90 percent or more of posts are about 5E. If more people started threads on Cypher, Vortex, 13th Age, etc these games would have a lot more reach (at least within this audience). The reason I push back against 'the eco system was unhealthy' argument, isn't because I don't want that eco system, it is because what I have seen over my life is the one argument that never persuades D&D players to switch systems is "You shouldn't be playing D&D".

 

[Oofta]

But I would argue this shouldn't be happening. WOTC is doing something extremely shady, potentially not legal, if they try to end the OGL. No one had any reason to believe that would happen. So I don't think what is unfolding is evidence of the problem with d20 being prime and D&D being the most popular game, but evidence of WOTC being a bad actor and doing something no one believed was legally possible

All that said, now that we have this situation, there are tons of non D&D games people can turn to. And I see people doing so. This is disrupting things. That creates opportunities and other companies are seizing those opportunities. If people want other game systems to rise the way to do that is buy them, review them, talk about them, post about them, livestream them, etc. Just look at En World: 90 percent or more of posts are about 5E. If more people started threads on Cypher, Vortex, 13th Age, etc these games would have a lot more reach (at least within this audience). The reason I push back against 'the eco system was unhealthy' argument, isn't because I don't want that eco system, it is because what I have seen over my life is the one argument that never persuades D&D players to switch systems is "You shouldn't be playing D&D".

Time will tell of course, but I think you overestimate how many people will care. These forums are a bit of an echo chamber of people that care about this kind of stuff, IMHO most people that play D&D do not. Will a small percentage quit in rage? Sure. D&D can afford to lose that 5% and still be the biggest game around by far.

All assuming of course that the draft copy we have is accurate and legally enforceable of course.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Well with all the people apparently willing to jump ship over the OGL changes, perhaps there will be a surge in non-dnd rpgs for people to play.

Didn't really happen when WotC released the GSL. Don't know why it would happen now.

It's not lost on me that when WotC abandoned the OGL the first time (when they made 4E)... it wasn't non-D&D RPGs, but rather it was a D&D clone (Pathfinder) that picked up all the slack. Doesn't that give us a pretty clear indication that indeed most of the RPG populace WANT to play D&D and all the D&D-adjacent games? And not many people at all really have a desire to expand the "non-D&D" pool beyond what it already is?

 

[Velderan]

3. More developed flavor and less confusion about fantasy elements. Things like Mind Flayers and Drow can't exist outside of D&D. While Goblins, Orcs and Elves can all exist they would not and probably could not be the same thing. A Goblin in the English language is probably closer to something from the movie Gremlins or alternatively a ghost than it is to a humanoid. Elves are santa's helpers and in some fiction stand less than a foot tall. D&D's dominance means that these terms mean close to the same thing to a group of players.

Elves are Santa's helpers? lol

You seem to be forgetting a lot of what you seem to be identifying as D&D was heavily inspired by Tolkien's work, which btw has a successful film franchise that WotC is hoping they can replicate.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Time will tell of course, but I think you overestimate how many people will care. These forums are a bit of an echo chamber of people that care about this kind of stuff, IMHO most people that play D&D do not. Will a small percentage quit in rage? Sure. D&D can afford to lose that 5% and still be the biggest game around by far.

All assuming of course that the draft copy we have is accurate and legally enforceable of course.

Like you say, only time will tell. But it isn't just forums. And what I am seeing makes what happened with 4E pale in comparison (and that gave rise to Pathfinder). I could be wrong of course, the future is hard to predict, but what I am seeing online is everyone, over 90 percent of the hobby is united in its anger towards WOTC. And I am seeing people who seem very serious about not giving WOTC another dime. If you go to twitter, it is just post after post of anger and hatred towards WOTC (in the past when I have seen other kerfuffles in the hobby there are maybe a group of dedicated angry posters but it isn't so ubiquitous and a constant stream like it is now). You see it on every forum. But, importantly, it is also what I am hearing among the people I game with in real life. Also there are so many publishers who are doing this pretty much as a hobby (there must be thousands of OGL products on Drivethru). Those people, even though they make just a small amount of change in many cases, have devoted time, money, etc to putting their passion into the culture that emerged around OGL. They deeply invested in this and I think this isn't going to be like other periods of anger or controversy we have seen. This looks like it has legs to me.

Also D&D can't rely on people who just participate in the brand by buying merchandise and watching movies. That is a fad. What keeps the game going are the people dedicated to playing it (and many of those people are online). Certainly there is a gulf between online gaming discussion and real life. And in 90 percent of cases where a controversy arises, I would agree with you (the combination of that, and the fact that it is usually a small but very vocal group online usually meant nothing really happened or changed). But here I don't think that is the case at all. I think they are going to lose a lot more than 5% (I think this could lead to another game taking D&D's place).

But like you say, it does largely depend on how accurate that draft is.

 

[Matt Thomason]

There is a lot of value in a "standard". Like the USB stick, or Facebook. They are sticking around due to inertia, because it's what people are used to.

But most gamers eventually try other systems. A lot of the 5e crowd are new, or new-ish. This could give them the incentive to try other systems. And there are many good choices.

I'd point out here that the USB standard is far better for everyone than the "Facebook standard", with the former being a good thing and the latter being closer to WotC's hold on the OGL.

The USB standard is maintained by an industry group putting it outside of the grubby little mitts of any single company. Which makes me think that's what the next Open License needs to be from the RPG industry.

 

[Oofta]

Like you say, only time will tell. But it isn't just forums. And what I am seeing makes what happened with 4E pale in comparison (and that gave rise to Pathfinder). I could be wrong of course, the future is hard to predict, but what I am seeing online is everyone, over 90 percent of the hobby is united in its anger towards WOTC. And I am seeing people who seem very serious about not giving WOTC another dime. If you go to twitter, it is just post after post of anger and hatred towards WOTC (in the past when I have seen other kerfuffles in the hobby there are maybe a group of dedicated angry posters but it isn't so ubiquitous and a constant stream like it is now). You see it on every forum. But, importantly, it is also what I am hearing among the people I game with in real life. Also there are so many publishers who are doing this pretty much as a hobby (there must be thousands of OGL products on Drivethru). Those people, even though they make just a small amount of change in many cases, have devoted time, money, etc to putting their passion into the culture that emerged around OGL. They deeply invested in this and I think this isn't going to be like other periods of anger or controversy we have seen. This looks like it has legs to me.

Also D&D can't rely on people who just participate in the brand by buying merchandise and watching movies. That is a fad. What keeps the game going are the people dedicated to playing it (and many of those people are online). Certainly there is a gulf between online gaming discussion and real life. And in 90 percent of cases where a controversy arises, I would agree with you (the combination of that, and the fact that it is usually a small but very vocal group online usually meant nothing really happened or changed). But here I don't think that is the case at all. I think they are going to lose a lot more than 5% (I think this could lead to another game taking D&D's place).

But like you say, it does largely depend on how accurate that draft is.

When 4E was released there was a large positive response at game days that I was involved with. The number of people playing actually increased from 3.5 days for a while. The people who stopped playing or went over to PF didn't do it because of the controversy, they did it because the nature of the game didn't appeal to them.

I think the draft OGL is a mistake. I doubt most people playing D&D will care.

 

[MGibster]

But I would argue this shouldn't be happening. WOTC is doing something extremely shady, potentially not legal, if they try to end the OGL. No one had any reason to believe that would happen. So I don't think what is unfolding is evidence of the problem with d20 being prime and D&D being the most popular game, but evidence of WOTC being a bad actor and doing something no one believed was legally possible

You could certainly argue that it shouldn't be happening, and I would agree, but that doesn't really matter. This is happening, and whether it's shady or possibly even illegal is irrelevant. And very often, nobody sees a problem with something until it actually becomes a problem. The only reason this is such a big problem is because the market is over reliant on one company.

 

[Aldarc]

Time will tell of course, but I think you overestimate how many people will care. These forums are a bit of an echo chamber of people that care about this kind of stuff, IMHO most people that play D&D do not. Will a small percentage quit in rage? Sure. D&D can afford to lose that 5% and still be the biggest game around by far.

All assuming of course that the draft copy we have is accurate and legally enforceable of course.

I'll believe it when I see it. People in our hobby can be quick to forgive and quicker to forget. People are fairly eager to find excuses to jump back to consume D&D. It was very similar to all the controversy at Blizzard, and despite all the people proclaiming that they would rage quit WoW or other Blizzard games due to their controversies, people ran right back once their newest release was out. Our love for consumption often overrides our long-term principles.

 

[Oofta]

I'll believe it when I see it. People in our hobby can be quick to forgive and quicker to forget. People are fairly eager to find excuses to jump back to consume D&D. It was very similar to all the controversy at Blizzard, and despite all the people proclaiming that they would rage quit WoW or other Blizzard games due to their controversies, people ran right back once their newest release was out. Our love for consumption often overrides our long-term principles.

I realize it's probably not the popular thing to say on this forum, but I don't foresee not playing D&D or buying new products if they interest me. I don't agree with the ethics of what they may be doing but it simply doesn't rise to the level of digging up shiny rocks to fund war atrocities (we didn't get a diamond ring when married because of this, and related issues) or using child labor in sweatshops level of outrage.

The silver lining, even if I don't plan on switching, is that we may see D&D getting some real competition in game structure and rules. Why develop a different system that may be technically better if you can just grab onto the OGL coattails and have a better chance of making money? Creating a new system is risky, even if the potential reward could be better if you're lucky. Maybe we'll see something like the open software movement where the people that come up with new standards are not the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

I suspect that in a year most people will have forgotten all about this.

 

[dbolack]

I happen to think D&D doesn't actually have lore or worldbuilding with mass appeal, and that in a market already exposed to prestige fantasy properties like House of the Dragon and even Rings of Power, anything uniquely and distinctly D&D will come across goofy and cartoonish.

If it comes across as a live-action Anime OVA or non-Grim Videogame, it'll be fine. But yes. This is about establishing the traditional media side of the brand ( for the 4th? 5th? time ) and maybe it sticks.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

As a pretty eclectic player interested in trying and playing all sorts of systems, I do think D&D (especially 5.0e--RIP) has a certain magic to it.

The rules have some rough edges, but the relative efficiency provided by the interaction of complexity with design goal is pretty high. In other words, if you like the level of complexity, the 5.0e D&D provides its intended experience efficiently. If you prefer more (or less) complexity, or you don't like the intended experience (like my friend who hates how much he feels they nerfed casters), or you just don't like class/level systems (like me, despite my liking 5e), you may not care for it, but other than some rough edges I think that is more about preference than quality.

D&D IP is also distinctive, expansive, and to me--wondrous. The reason I had a hard time staying away from D&D permanently when I gave up over the (actually) clumsy system back in 2e, is because of the Quasi-elemental Plane of Lightning, the City of Brass, the triad of Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance, the Phlogiston, 3rd level spells, beholders and displacer beasts. No one has/had all of that, because it's real IP, and I love it as much as any Star Wars expanded universe or Marvel fan.

I agree with the original premise that it's not good for the market (or for D&D!) for it to have such a stranglehold on the industry. I agree that some of major reasons for its popularity are unrelated to its quality. I do not agree that its popularity is in spite of low quality.

What you are saying here is often overlooked in discussions about the appeal of the game.

A big oversight. And frankly, it gets missed when we talk about Gygax and Arneson. Sure they pulled from different places and the “idea” of roleplaying in a war game is novel.

But I am always amazed at the world and beasts and assumptions about it all that was also created. Whether undead, the named demons and devils, the sorts of elves, whatever…

When I look at a new game that deviates I always think of the D&D creations as the cool name brand baseline. Which we modify, hack and torture…but the beholder and the drow and Mordenkainen are D&D fantasy rpg baseline for me.

 

[MGibster]

I realize it's probably not the popular thing to say on this forum, but I don't foresee not playing D&D or buying new products if they interest me. I don't agree with the ethics of what they may be doing but it simply doesn't rise to the level of digging up shiny rocks to fund war atrocities (we didn't get a diamond ring when married because of this, and related issues) or using child labor in sweatshops level of outrage.

I'm in the same boat. I'm far more concerned with what WotC is going to do wring more money out of D&D. If make a big push to "encourage" us always be connected via apps or something similiar in an effort to make us subscribers I will likely move away from D&D in its entirety. I'm not so keen on what WotC is doing with the OGL, but I don't have many strong feelings about it.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I've been saving a tweet for just this occasion.

 

[Zardnaar]

I've been saving a tweet for just this occasion.

Indie developers are indie for a reason.

 

[MGibster]

I've been saving a tweet for just this occasion.

We've heard it said many times before, developers produce for 5E because that's where the money is at.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think the draft OGL is a mistake. I doubt most people playing D&D will care.

I think that's true, but let's be real, "most" is essentially any number over 50% even in a binary situation.

Even if 10% of players actually care, that's a huge loss to WotC, and potentially a big gain for other RPGs out there. And think that this may well be more than 10%.

Also I'd note that one big thing here which won't have immediate effects but will have longer-term ones is causing people who are playing D&D without making a choice to, just because it's what's being played, to think about and learn about other RPGs, other options, and so on. Once that process has started, and it already did, you're going to get people getting curious in future, and that's quite likely to move us towards a more 1990s-like situation over time.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think that's true, but let's be real, "most" is essentially any number over 50% even in a binary situation.

Even if 10% of players actually care, that's a huge loss to WotC, and potentially a big gain for other RPGs out there. And think that this may well be more than 10%.

Also I'd note that one big thing here which won't have immediate effects but will have longer-term ones is causing people who are playing D&D without making a choice to, just because it's what's being played, to think about and learn about other RPGs, other options, and so on. Once that process has started, and it already did, you're going to get people getting curious in future, and that's quite likely to move us towards a more 1990s-like situation over time.

Well it also depends on what 10% you get.

We know there's a DM shortage and whales buy more product than casuals.