The pendulum swings back: Humans suck once again

[Cadfan]

Who?

I don't doubt that you understand a one pip bonus equals a 5% chance, but you aren't looking at anything economically, which is what I'm trying to show. I'm not going to waste time demonstrating basic probability which no one disagrees on.

Look at it another way--at 20th level, the human bonus is still one pip when anyone can get at least a five pip bonus from a few different sources. 10 or more pips from different sources will probably not be uncommon. The +1s make up a very small amount of the total defenses the higher the levels get. It never scales while neck slot items, powers, etc. do, thus its relative value decreases.

It's not a horrible bonus, but it's certainly nothing I would brag about.

Look. You shouldn't choose this as your hill to die upon, because you're wrong.

Let me illustrate it this way.

Suppose you have a character who attacks at +8 versus my character's AC of 19. You hit on an 11+. If you gain +1 to attack, now you hit on a 10+. Your damage output increased by 10%.

Now lets change things.

Suppose you have a character who attacks at +10,008 versus my character's AC of 10,019. You hit on an 11+. If you gain +1 to attack, now you hit on a 10+. Your damage output increased by 10%.

See? Its all the same. Not everything in the game auto-scales this way, but defenses most certainly do.

 

[Felon]

Look at it another way--at 20th level, the human bonus is still one pip when anyone can get at least a five pip bonus from a few different sources. 10 or more pips from different sources will probably not be uncommon. The +1s make up a very small amount of the total defenses the higher the levels get. It never scales while neck slot items, powers, etc. do, thus its relative value decreases.

It's not a horrible bonus, but it's certainly nothing I would brag about.

So, you posit that at 20th level, any single +1 bonus will be less valuable than it was at 1st level when bonuses were harder to come by.

OK, so far so good. Now, what singles out the +1 a human gets as "suckage", while all the micro-bonuses that other races get qualfiies as "awesome"? Isn't part of your arguement that other races receive two +2 bonuses to ability scores? Isn't a +2 to an ability score just another crummy +1 bonus?

That's why your position seems like one big canard. You're trying to undervalue a +1 bonus or an extra feat by trying to use an epic character as your baseline. In general, higher-level characters have access to great resources. That 20th-level character could have an item or power that eclipses any racial benefit, be it a +1 bonus, or a bonus feat, or the eladrin's dimension hop, or the dragonborn's breath.

 

[MindWanderer]

This has been covered elsewhere, but the pacts give you a special ability, and then don't limit you in any way, ever. You can be a Fey Pact warlock and take all star pact powers if you want. The pacts just show what ability scores the powers key off of (CHA or CON).

Hmm... in that case, human warlocks might actually be a really good idea. A Fey Pact warlock, for instance, is forced to take Eyebite (from what folks have posted) and really ought to take Eldritch Blast, but a human could also take the at-will for one of the other two pacts. Only a human will be able to keep Eldritch Blast and go cross-pact--or ditch Eldritch Blast and get all 3 pacts at-wills.

 

[Lacyon]

Who?

I don't doubt that you understand a one pip bonus equals a 5% chance, but you aren't looking at anything economically, which is what I'm trying to show. I'm not going to waste time demonstrating basic probability which no one disagrees on.

Look at it another way--at 20th level, the human bonus is still one pip when anyone can get at least a five pip bonus from a few different sources. 10 or more pips from different sources will probably not be uncommon. The +1s make up a very small amount of the total defenses the higher the levels get. It never scales while neck slot items, powers, etc. do, thus its relative value decreases.

The value of a +1 is not relative to the value of your other bonuses at all. Its value is .05 * average enemy damage output * number of times enemies attack you.

It's better at high levels (when enemy damage is higher) than it is at low levels, not worse. This is true whether it comprises 10% of your total defense value or 1%.

 

[Cadfan]

The value of a +1 is not relative to the value of your other bonuses at all. Its value is .05 * average enemy damage output * number of times enemies attack you.

This is true.

It's better at high levels (when enemy damage is higher) than it is at low levels, not worse. This is true whether it comprises 10% of your total defense value or 1%.

This isn't necessarily true. This depends on how enemy damage scales relative to your total hit points. What really matters at the end of the day is "how many rounds can I survive this abuse before I die." Taking 10 damage per round when you have 50 hp is the same as taking 20 damage per round when you have 100, and an ability which reduces that 10 damage to 9 is the same in terms of effect as an ability that reduces the 20 damage per round to an 18.

Almost everything in the game scales this way.

 

[silentounce]

Exactly. Feats are not as strong and you get a lot more of them. The extra +2 humans don't get could be worth 7 or more points in assigning ability scores.

No need to exagerrate... it could never be worth more than 7. From 16 to 18 is exactly 7 points. From 17 to 18 is four, but you can't start with two 17s, not with 22 point buy. So you either start with a 14 and a 18, or two 16s. In the first case, the additional +2 would give you what amounts to an extra 4 building points, in the latter it amounts to 7 points.

There are some cosmological theories, developed from the mathematics of quantum mechanics, that posit an infinite number of alternate universes, covering all possibilities. Every possible outcome of every event, everything we can imagine, and uncountable googleplexes of universes more strange and wonderful than we can imagine.

It is awesome to think, that somewhere out there in that infinite sea of realized possibilities there exists a world where Hong's words were actually a useful comment.

I wonder if that's the same universe where your comment is useful, too.

Or this one.

maybe its not that humans suck so much. Maybe its the fact that in 3.x all of the other races seemed like poor choices in the face of the bonus human feat.

8 years of humans...... Now you look at the 4e races and realize that playing an elf or dwarf is a good choice. A choice on par with a human character. But since humans have been a superior choice for so long the other races start looking better than they are.

There are other reasons to play a specific race besides min/maxing. Granted, we're all guilty of it at times, but come on, this is ROLEplaying, isn't it?

I also love how they nerfed multiclassing, it puts an end to those ridiculous, broken builds with a few levels in several different classes. I always enforced the favored class rules though, that put a stop to most of that. Everybody is entitled to play there own way, though.

 

[Rzach]

Yeah it's ROLEplaying. But the human feat in 3.x made the other races choices seem worse. I played an elf sorcerer. Lagged behind the party in effectiveness. Played a dwarf fighter. I wasn't as good as the human fighter.

It's not apparent at first level. Not even second or third level normally. But by fifth level the difference begins to show. It is harder to make requirements for prestige classes. It is harder to make certain types of characters like two weapon fighters.

Yeah you can roleplay your character all you want. Still doesn't change the fact that in a fight you suck. And since we are talking about DUNGEONS & DRAGONS here, and not a White Wolf rpg, combat ability is pretty important. If it wasn't important to the game we wouldn't have so many rules and powers related to it in each edition.

Playing a hero is fun. Playing a second rate dwarven fighter who lags behind the tweaked human is not fun. Sub optimal is not fun. So in 3.x non human races equal not fun. Thats my experience.

I guess that others may have had other experiences. I like roleplaying but it doesn't help make combat more interesting. If this was another rpg system I wouldn't care. I can play non combat oriented characters all day and enjoy it. But in those systems I don't feel weak because I can't fight.

Later,
Rzach

 

[Bolongo]

Hmm... in that case, human warlocks might actually be a really good idea. A Fey Pact warlock, for instance, is forced to take Eyebite (from what folks have posted) and really ought to take Eldritch Blast, but a human could also take the at-will for one of the other two pacts. Only a human will be able to keep Eldritch Blast and go cross-pact--or ditch Eldritch Blast and get all 3 pacts at-wills.

Well, yes and no. A warlock has to take Eldritch Blast and their pact's at-will. Free choice of powers is only for everything else (encounter, daily, utility).
What that means is that humans are the only warlocks that can take another pact's at-will. In fact, they have to.

P.S.: oh and BTW, you would never want to ditch EB even if you could.

 

[Diirk]

This has been covered elsewhere, but the pacts give you a special ability, and then don't limit you in any way, ever. You can be a Fey Pact warlock and take all star pact powers if you want. The pacts just show what ability scores the powers key off of (CHA or CON).

Thats not completely true; your initial at wills are eldritch blast and 1 other determined by your pact. You don't actually get to choose them like everyone else does (which is a bit annoying since the infernal at will targets the same defense as eldritch blast does; I'd much prefer 2 at wills targetting different defenses.)

 

[Bolongo]

To get back to the racial discussion...

Quite to the contrary of the OP, I'm a little concerned that humans are a little too good. Or perhaps more accurately, that for someone who understands the math of the system, the number of race-class combinations that make sense are rather limited.

Let me reiterate the point about statistics that several other posters have made: a persistent +1 to a certain value never stops being valuable, whether you're level 1 or 30. This is not a matter of debate, it is a self-evident truth. Having a 5 percentile greater chance to do something or stop someone from doing unto you is always pure gold.

If we assume that combat will account for a major part of the dice-rolling in most D&D campaigns, we quickly realize that each class has one ability score that controls both the success rate and damage done with most of their powers. All of them, in fact, if they are chosen wisely.

This means that it will always be optimal to start with this main stat as high as possible at level 1, and increase it by +1 every chance you get.

What this in turn means is that you must choose a race that will give +2 to your main stat. The only exception that immediately springs to mind is dwarf fighters: the other dwarven racial abilities are so awesome for tanking, that not having max Strength can be forgiven.

If you combine this perspective with taking into account the usefulness of other racial abilities, the conclusion is that Humans totally bring the pwnage. The only other race that comes close for breadth of class options is Dragonborn. The rest of the races can all be good choices, but in narrower fields.

... Except Tieflings, who suck no matter how you cut it.

Edit: removed a faulty comment about level 28.