The pendulum swings back: Humans suck once again

[Cadfan]

What I probably won't ever be is a human cleric. Since there's only two Wis-based at-wills and two Str-based ones, you either have to be balanced between those two stats or have one at-will that isn't very good. I might take this route with the intention of multiclassing and ditching the odd man out, or if the Divine Power book gets me a third useful at-will (actually, make it a second and a third--Lance of Faith and Sacred Flame are too similar for my tastes).

Same thought here. My favorite race/class combination doesn't work right until the an expansion book comes out. Oh well. It happens. There's always elves.

 

[Dausuul]

I understand the math just fine. I kept the number at near parity for demonstration purposes. As the numbers get higher and the difference smaller, it will be more and more trivial for the non-humans to gain parity through the many means of defense acquisition. A +10 here, a +10 there and a +1 is easily outclassed. If you are going for pure optimization, a human will be able to squeeze out that last 5% above the others, but it is probably not worth it beyond a certain point. This is the same reason why even a fixed bonus Dodge was generally seen as suboptimal for strong builds in 3rd.

What makes you think people are getting "a +10 here, a +10 there?" From what we've seen of 4E, it looks like options to raise your defenses are quite tightly controlled; the whole point of 4th Edition's revamped math is to ensure that the numbers don't diverge wildly as you reach the higher levels.

And Dodge was sub-optimal because a) there were so many broken feat combos and b) all it did was boost your AC. In 3.X terms, this is like a feat that gives you +1 AC and +1 to all saving throws, which is a hell of a lot better.

I repeat, this isn't 3.X.

 

[Baumi]

Let's not forget that Humans also get a Skill-Training free ... this seems like a small bonus, but when you only get 4 (default?) then the difference is quite huge.

Overall I think they are ok. I wish they had two Attribute Bonuses, but they should still be even with the other races with only one (hey at least it's always the "best" Attribute).

 

[Andor]

So don't play them.

There are some cosmological theories, developed from the mathematics of quantum mechanics, that posit an infinite number of alternate universes, covering all possibilities. Every possible outcome of every event, everything we can imagine, and uncountable googleplexes of universes more strange and wonderful than we can imagine.

It is awesome to think, that somewhere out there in that infinite sea of realized possibilities there exists a world where Hong's words were actually a useful comment.

 

[Kesh]

Having the extra feat is big in one way: your (non-Wizard/Cleric) humans can pick up the Ritual casting feat and still pick another feat like normal. That opens a ton of new abilities for the character to use out of combat.

 

[hong]

There are some cosmological theories, developed from the mathematics of quantum mechanics, that posit an infinite number of alternate universes, covering all possibilities. Every possible outcome of every event, everything we can imagine, and uncountable googleplexes of universes more strange and wonderful than we can imagine.

It is awesome to think, that somewhere out there in that infinite sea of realized possibilities there exists a world where Hong's words were actually a useful comment.

Yes. Like this one.

 

[Storminator]

Looking over the table on page 6 in the Pre-release RC, the humans look pretty much in line with all the other races.

Ability adjustments, humans have less, but always perfect for their class and build. Wash.

Size, speed, vision, languages, all normal. Wash.

Skill bonus, humans have better bonus and more flexible. Advantage human.

Defense bonus, humans have +2/+3. Advantage human.

Benefits, humans are behind by one minor feature. Advantage all others.

Looks pretty even across the board.

Honestly, looking at that chart, I can't imagine any race being slighted. All look playable. And this from a guy that played exclusively humans for 3e...

PS

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

and everyone knows what happens to the party if the cleric is first to drop.

"Give the lazy bugger a healing potion or use a Healing Surge ability, someone!
We don't need no steenken' clerics!
THIS IS SPARTA, er, FOURTH EDITION!!"
hehe

 

[Zaruthustran]

I think the OP is overestimating the importance of that second +2 ability score bump, and underestimating the importance of the many other benefits of the human.

Most classes have a single prime ability score. Fighters, for example, rely almost completely on Strength.

The other ability scores may add flavor, but they're not essential to success. Fighters, for example, have a power that pushes a target a number of squares equal to Dex modifier. The difference between an ability score of 14 and an ability score of 16 is 1 square of push. Not a big deal, at all, and there are very few of these types of powers.

Build a few dozen characters and you'll find that for most builds, you care only about the primary score, and the other scores are important mainly for their contribution to defense. So for a Dragonborn fighter, you care very much about the +2 Str bonus, but the +2 Cha bonus you'll come to see as merely "+1 to Will defense".

Now consider the human in that light. They've got the +2 to the primary ability score--any prime ability score. And they've got +1 to all defenses. Given the above revelation of how that secondary +2 is eventually viewed, that's like +2 bonuses to two other scores... plus a bonus to whatever defense is derived from your primary score.

That's huge.

Then you get a bonus feat. You could take Weapon Focus. That gives +1 damage; a good chunk of the benefit from a +2 bump to Strength. If you're a fighter, Weapon Focus is more important than a racial +2 bump to a non-Str ability score. Or consider upgrading from Scale to Plate: that +1 to AC is, again, more important than +2 to some non-Str stat.

That +2 to any stat allows humans to specialize and excel in any class, and the extra feat lets them further specialize. The bonus to all three defenses makes them hard to kill. The extra at-will power and skill gives them breadth & makes them adaptable. Collectively, these traits do a good job of showing why humans tend to be the dominant race in any generic fantasy setting.

Do humans suck, mechanically? No way. Not at all. Are they superior to the other races, mechanically? I think so, but I'm not 100% sure: the per-encounter racial abilities of Dragonborn and Eladrin are pretty hard to beat.

-z

PS: For example, compare a human fighter and a dragonborn fighter. Same base stats of Str 16, Con 14, Dex 13, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10.

Both the human and the dragonborn will have an 18 Str. The dragonborn will have a 12 Charisma. For feats, give the human Weapon Focus and Plate Armor. Give the Dragonborn either one (we'll pick plate armor). Equip them both identically: longsword, plate mail, heavy shield. Now compare attacks and defenses (assume 1-handed fighter weapon talent).

Human basic attack : +8, 1d8 + 5
Dragonborn basic attack: +8, 1d8 +4

Human: AC 20, Fort 17, Ref 14, Will 11
Dragonborn: AC 20, Fort 16, Ref 13, Will 11

Over the long haul, that dragonborn will tend to drop before the human, and the human will do more damage. That doesn't make the human better--the Dragonborn's other abilities are cool, especially the minion-clearing breath weapon--but it does make humans at least on par with them.

 

[Kobu]

Mmmhmm.

It's cool, don't believe Hong or me, or anyone else for that matter. Our posts and careers do speak out to our complete lack of knowledge of probability / statistics, especially in respect to game systems and d20 in particular.

Heck, I let other people roll my dice, they just hurt my brain to look at

Who?

I don't doubt that you understand a one pip bonus equals a 5% chance, but you aren't looking at anything economically, which is what I'm trying to show. I'm not going to waste time demonstrating basic probability which no one disagrees on.

Look at it another way--at 20th level, the human bonus is still one pip when anyone can get at least a five pip bonus from a few different sources. 10 or more pips from different sources will probably not be uncommon. The +1s make up a very small amount of the total defenses the higher the levels get. It never scales while neck slot items, powers, etc. do, thus its relative value decreases.

It's not a horrible bonus, but it's certainly nothing I would brag about.