The pendulum swings back: Humans suck once again

[hong]

I'm not entirely sure humans suck or not, but this is a bad argument.

It is not an argument. It is a recommendation.

 

[Vikingkingq]

The extra at-will is more important than people realize: you only get 2, you get them when you start, and you don't get any others. Only humans get three. Which means that when your group is in trouble, when you've burned through your 4 encounters and your 4 dailys, that you've got one more thing that you can do than anyone else. That's big.

 

[Felon]

Very small benefit in my opinion. Its cool, but not nearly as solid as everyone here seems to be making it.

As for the bonus at-will, exactly what do you think you'll be doing with that? At-wills are pretty much stagnant. There's no improvement for them aside from a small power bump at level 21, and you don't swap them out for improved powers. At the lowest levels a bonus at-will could be nifty for versatility, but does not improve your characters power. By the time you start getting more and improved encounter powers, that bonus at-will will feel paltry and it's doubtful it will get much use.

Right, versatility is weak. Who would want a variety of area effects, or attacking multiple defenses, or inflicting different conditions?

/sarcasm

The defense bonus? Eh. Survivalist characters rarely bring the awesome and the bonus will hardly be felt at later levels.

So, defensive bonuses are lame as well? If you're just going to declare that the only racial abilities that "bring the awesome" are those that stack more damage onto abilities you get from your classes, then most racial assets are going to come out looking weak.

An extra feat when you get 7 is great, an extra feat when you get like 16 or so is meh.

You got seven feats over twenty levels before, now you'll get eleven instead. If it was good before, it's still pretty good now, and we don't even know what the relative strength of feats are. Just because some have been rolled into class abilities doesn't make them weaker across the board.

 

[Kaodi]

As I mentioned in the half-elf thread, the extra at-will that humans get is huge if you want to multiclass in place of taking a paragon path, because if you want an at-will from your second class you apparently have to substitute for it.

 

[Kobu]

And, contrary to Kobu's assertion, the defense bonus should be felt equally at all levels. This isn't 3.X.

What's 3rd got to do with it?

Let's say a dwarf at level 1 has a will defense of 10 + 3 for ability score for a total of 13. A human has comparable ability scores so he has 10 + 3 + 1 for his bonus for a total of 14. Roughly a 7% better score.

By 10th level, the scores would reasonably be 10 + 5 (ability) + 5 (1/2 level) = 20 for the dwarf, and 10 + 5 + 5 + 1 = 21 for the human. That's a difference of 5%.

At 20th, we may see 10 + 7 (ability) + 10 (level) + 5 (equipment) = 32 for the dwarf, and of course 31 for the human. Difference of just over 3%. Do you see where this is going?

On top of that, the extra +2 to an ability score that the dwarf gets means that the human only has a +1 better to two defenses, not three.

So tell me, how exactly are those two +1s felt equally at all levels?

 

[hong]

What's 3rd got to do with it?

Let's say a dwarf at level 1 has a will defense of 10 + 3 for ability score for a total of 13. A human has comparable ability scores so he has 10 + 3 + 1 for his bonus for a total of 14. Roughly a 7% better score.

By 10th level, the scores would reasonably be 10 + 5 (ability) + 5 (1/2 level) = 20 for the dwarf, and 10 + 5 + 5 + 1 = 21 for the human. That's a difference of 5%.

At 20th, we may see 10 + 7 (ability) + 10 (level) + 5 (equipment) = 32 for the dwarf, and of course 31 for the human. Difference of just over 3%. Do you see where this is going?

On top of that, the extra +2 to an ability score that the dwarf gets means that the human only has a +1 better to two defenses, not three.

So tell me, how exactly are those two +1s felt equally at all levels?

Bonus is not a ratio-scale measurement.

Trust me, I'm a statistician.

 

[keterys]

Do you see where this is going?

Yes, you're not understanding the math correctly. The difference is 1 at all levels, not a reduced percentage of usefulness. Basic probability on a d20 as long as you're not in <2 >19 area (and even then, it doesn't work the way you say)

 

[hong]

Yes, you're not understanding the math correctly. The difference is 1 at all levels, not a reduced percentage of usefulness. Basic probability on a d20 as long as you're not in <2 >19 area (and even then, it doesn't work the way you say)

That's what I said!

 

[Kobu]

Yes, you're not understanding the math correctly. The difference is 1 at all levels, not a reduced percentage of usefulness. Basic probability on a d20 as long as you're not in <2 >19 area (and even then, it doesn't work the way you say)

I understand the math just fine. I kept the number at near parity for demonstration purposes. As the numbers get higher and the difference smaller, it will be more and more trivial for the non-humans to gain parity through the many means of defense acquisition. A +10 here, a +10 there and a +1 is easily outclassed. If you are going for pure optimization, a human will be able to squeeze out that last 5% above the others, but it is probably not worth it beyond a certain point. This is the same reason why even a fixed bonus Dodge was generally seen as suboptimal for strong builds in 3rd.

 

[Surgoshan]

What's 3rd got to do with it?

Let's say a dwarf at level 1 has a will defense of 10 + 3 for ability score for a total of 13. A human has comparable ability scores so he has 10 + 3 + 1 for his bonus for a total of 14. Roughly a 7% better score.

By 10th level, the scores would reasonably be 10 + 5 (ability) + 5 (1/2 level) = 20 for the dwarf, and 10 + 5 + 5 + 1 = 21 for the human. That's a difference of 5%.

At 20th, we may see 10 + 7 (ability) + 10 (level) + 5 (equipment) = 32 for the dwarf, and of course 31 for the human. Difference of just over 3%. Do you see where this is going?

On top of that, the extra +2 to an ability score that the dwarf gets means that the human only has a +1 better to two defenses, not three.

So tell me, how exactly are those two +1s felt equally at all levels?

At level one, a tough foe will need a seven to hit your dwarven friend, but an eight to hit you. At level twenty-one, a tough foe will need a seven to hit your dwarven friend, but an eight to hit you. The bonus is going to be felt at all levels, because it's not simply a matter of big numbers. It's a matter of relative difference between the attack and the defense. If your defense is better, your defense is better, full stop.