The pendulum swings back: Humans suck once again

[keterys]

I understand the math just fine.

Mmmhmm.

It's cool, don't believe Hong or me, or anyone else for that matter. Our posts and careers do speak out to our complete lack of knowledge of probability / statistics, especially in respect to game systems and d20 in particular.

Heck, I let other people roll my dice, they just hurt my brain to look at

 

[Spenser]

Heck, I let other people roll my dice, they just hurt my brain to look at

Okay, even if you're a totally cold-blooded professional statistician -- that's just sacrilege, man.

 

[Victoly]

I think we're overestimating the importance of racial traits because we've only seen the first few levels of abilities. Is an extra feat versus +2 to a second ability really going to matter that much when some of the higher-level abilities come into play? Sure, they'll still matter, but it won't be a deal maker or breaker. I also think that the racial feats could have a lot of sway on what we think about race balance later on, and I don't think we've seen all of the racial feats just yet.

 

[Rzach]

maybe its not that humans suck so much. Maybe its the fact that in 3.x all of the other races seemed like poor choices in the face of the bonus human feat.

8 years of humans...... Now you look at the 4e races and realize that playing an elf or dwarf is a good choice. A choice on par with a human character. But since humans have been a superior choice for so long the other races start looking better than they are.

Having read the statlines of the races I feel that humans are equal to the other races. In general the human specific feats make the humans a good choice. You get an extra feat to spend on them as well.

I really think that players are tired of playing humans though. Because of this the other races seem superior. Of course only time will tell.

Now I am off to consider Drow rogues and Orc Warlords.......

Later.
Rzach

 

[Ahglock]

wow this thread got rude fast.

 

[MindWanderer]

yeah the extra at will seems kind of cool, but not really useful. Lets say you are playing a wizard, um you take magic missile, acid splash, and then what? fire ray or something(don't know what they all are) So lets see i get the ability to shoot you in the face at will, the ability to shoot you in the face at will, oh and the ability to shoot you in the face at will. Yeah woo hoo. Sure I covered one more element, but chances are two will cover what you need if you don't do something lame like take two similar ones.

At least its got some cool power not as much as teleporting 5 squares, but a smidge of cool power.

Actually, I think wizards are one of the best examples of how this is useful. You take Magic Missile (a basic ranged attack with great distance and good damage), Scorching Burst (your basic ranged AoE) and either Thunderlance (for when you're cornered) or Cloud of Daggers (haven't seen it, so I'm not sure about its merits, but it does seem to have some). If I play a wizard, I want to be human.

Warlord is also a great example. Commander's Strike isn't really an attack, so losing one of your at-wills to it is kind of a bum deal (even if it is awesome). Being able to take two others is a great benefit.

What I probably won't ever be is a human cleric. Since there's only two Wis-based at-wills and two Str-based ones, you either have to be balanced between those two stats or have one at-will that isn't very good. I might take this route with the intention of multiclassing and ditching the odd man out, or if the Divine Power book gets me a third useful at-will (actually, make it a second and a third--Lance of Faith and Sacred Flame are too similar for my tastes).

And as near as I can tell, a human warlock just doesn't function. Is it even possible for a warlock to have three at-wills? It looks like you get Eldritch Blast and one at-will based on your pact.

 

[Errantocracy]

For those who are complaining about the uselessness of the humans' +1 to defense, please consider the cost of getting you're armor upgraded from +4 to +5. Is this upgrade in armor useless. As has been readily pointed out, +1 means an extra 1-in-20 chance you are not hit at any level, unless you're in the almost-always-hit range or the almost-never hit range.

Though there has only been one post on it so far, I should also point out that humans are one again THE multiclassers, since the additional feat will make it less painful to use one later on for multiclassing, and the extra power can be swapped out for one of another class.

 

[Sashi]

What I probably won't ever be is a human cleric. Since there's only two Wis-based at-wills and two Str-based ones, you either have to be balanced between those two stats or have one at-will that isn't very good. I might take this route with the intention of multiclassing and ditching the odd man out, or if the Divine Power book gets me a third useful at-will (actually, make it a second and a third--Lance of Faith and Sacred Flame are too similar for my tastes).

But you will be an awesome Cleric/Paladin since that third At-Will means that when you reach 11th level and get to trade one of your At-Wills for one of the other class's you aren't giving up anything you really wanted anyway, for something you really want.

And as near as I can tell, a human warlock just doesn't function. Is it even possible for a warlock to have three at-wills? It looks like you get Eldritch Blast and one at-will based on your pact.

This has been covered elsewhere, but the pacts give you a special ability, and then don't limit you in any way, ever. You can be a Fey Pact warlock and take all star pact powers if you want. The pacts just show what ability scores the powers key off of (CHA or CON).

 

[ObsidianCrane]

I disagree with the op.

Looking at the options revealed by confirmation of these races seems to open up some sweet combos to me. For example, Human Warlock with Wizard MC (Scorching Ray) or Half-Elf Warlock using their racial to get Scorching Ray seems pretty good. You get the benefit of an extra encounter power - one that you can use with your Warlock's Curse to do a significant amount of damage to multiple opponents in a round, without reducing your effectiveness as a Warlock compared to say...well actually any other race (except maybe an Elf with that handy Re-roll on ranged attacks /Encounter).

I'm sure other combinations will show up. But that flexibility to cherry pick another classes first level powers, or grab the multiclass benefit essentially for free is very nice. Its the same old flexibility vs fixed power balance of 3E, but in 4E the advantage of picking flexibility appears to not be as pronounced as it was in 3E (in part thanks to the removal of feat treeing, and the increased number of feats gained)

That's just ideas available from public information, I'm sure as the books hit other benefits will become apparent as well.

 

[glass]

Are you being sarcastic about humans? As far as I can tell, they're excellent.

I think you're vastly underestimating 'little things' like a +1 to all defenses or a 50% increase in number of at-will powers.

This. My response was going to include the words Whiskey Tango and Foxtrot, but keyerys put it better.


glass.