D&D 5E The Printers Can't Handle WotC's One D&D Print Runs!

One of the reasons why the three new core rulebooks next year will not be released together is because D&D is such a juggernaut that the printers can't actually handle the size of the print runs!

Jeremy Crawford told Polygon "Our print runs are pretty darn big and printers are telling us you can’t give us these three books at the same time.” And Chris Perkins added that "The print runs we’re talking about are massive. That’s been not only true of the core books, but also Tasha’s Cauldron. It’s what we call a high-end problem."

 

[Hussar]

Oh yeah the UI for vtts can suck a lot. Unintuitive is a huge understatement.

Which is again why I’m utterly baffled why none of the rpg companies have ever stepped up. Yes it’s not cheap. Sure. But from a marketing standpoint it’s just such a no brainer.

 

[codo]

Oh yeah the UI for vtts can suck a lot. Unintuitive is a huge understatement.

Which is again why I’m utterly baffled why none of the rpg companies have ever stepped up. Yes it’s not cheap. Sure. But from a marketing standpoint it’s just such a no brainer.

I think the cost is the issue. Until the huge spike in players with 5e, I just don't think there were enough players to make the investment worth while.

 

[Azzy]

The issue isn't that they make a profit, ots that WotC is making so much profit they can afford to eat inflation increases and still make increasingly large profits.

This is true of every corporation. Unfortunately, we live in a world where this is rewarded and lauded. <insert rant about late-stage capitalism>

 

[Umbran]

No one called them liers on the printer shortage, just not buying they can't absorb the inflation and still increase profits because they already proved they can.

Even if they can absorb the inflation, you haven't given a good business reason why they should.

 

[Umbran]

Which is again why I’m utterly baffled why none of the rpg companies have ever stepped up. Yes it’s not cheap. Sure. But from a marketing standpoint it’s just such a no brainer.

So, the reason for that is obvious - they are game designers and publishers, not software shops. It simply isn't their technical or business bailiwick. I believe the common business phrase would be, "outside their core competencies."

This is the reason I'm still very skeptical of WotC's entry to the field. They know gaming, but I don't have confidence that they know software, or the software business, sufficiently to pull off a good offering.

 

[Azzy]

I think that "everyone" (society) pays a LOT more when we choose not to value people and labor.

That's a lesson that we learned before, but it seems that we have to keep re-learning it.

But what about those top-level corporate executives? If we start paying the workers their actual worth, those execs might not be able to buy another yacht!

 

[Dire Bare]

Oh yeah the UI for vtts can suck a lot. Unintuitive is a huge understatement.

Which is again why I’m utterly baffled why none of the rpg companies have ever stepped up. Yes it’s not cheap. Sure. But from a marketing standpoint it’s just such a no brainer.

WotC is working on one. And it's not their first attempt.

They've "stepped up" . . . . just not successfully yet!

Software development is hard.

 

[Parmandur]

So, the reason for that is obvious - they are game designers and publishers, not software shops. It simply isn't their technical or business bailiwick. I believe the common business phrase would be, "outside their core competencies."

This is the reason I'm still very skeptical of WotC's entry to the field. They know gaming, but I don't have confidence that they know software, or the software business, sufficiently to pull off a good offering.

They have had major, wild success at in-house software development recently...for Magic. And a lot of recent WotC leadership hires come from the software industry. Doesnmean they can do it for D&D, too, but...they can do software.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I'm sorry, but you invoked your status as an indie publisher, and ended with, "And I think it is very fair for fans to tell us when they think prices are too high." In context, the "us" is "publishers".

In the context of this thread, the implication is then that the complaints about prices are complaints to the publisher.

Which they actually are not. If we are talking about comfort, I, as someone who has to dole out the red text, am not comfortable with the idea that complaining about prices here is in any way communicating with the publisher. In that past, that stance has led people to some toxic behaviors.

So, I disabuse the notion when I see it.

My main reason for mentioning I publish indie was to say I personally don't see WOTC raising their prices as giving me space to raise mine (and even if I did, I don't think that is beneficial for the hobby overall). And I am not saying WOTC can't raise their prices if they need to (I think whether they need and ought to is something people can reasonably debate). I definitely don't think increasing prices are something to celebrate though as they represent a real cost to gamers during a time when prices are increasing but wages are not necessarily keeping up with those prices (people pay more for milk because they have to, but they don't have to buy games). Everyone's cut off point is different and based on their own budget. I know for me, games that are 60 dollars or more I am much, much more reluctant purchase (in fact I don't think I have ever spent that much on an RPG). One concern I have is I have seen arguments by people due to these price increases that 70, 80, 90 or even 100 are more natural price levels for RPG books and that it would be better for publishers, better for the hobby, if people were more willing to spend that on them. I don't think it is a matter of willingness. I think that price level is simply too expensive for most people and it exceeds the value that most would place on a premade RPG and setting (especially since this is a hobby people can make settings and systems for themselves if they really need to). Now not everyone may agree. I am sure plenty of posters have no problem spending those kinds of dollars on a book. .

And you are right I did say "us" in that sense. While I don't think what people say in this thread or threads elsewhere online should be mistaken for an official complaint department, I do think companies read these kinds of threads (I know I do). And it is fair for people to voice discontent over prices or other criticisms in them. But I do think WOTC probably pays minimal attention to this kind of thread, and what I had in mind was people expressing opinions that lots of other publishers might see (WOTC is probably too big to pay close attention to a thread like this, smaller publishers and mid level publishers are more likely to observe them). To me this is more about people voicing their concern over prices in general because WOTC is raising theirs (not so much about WOTC).

But I agree with you that some behavior crosses the line, especially if they are going after individuals who work at these publishers personally. I've been on the receiving end of that sort of thing, so I do get the concern. And I think reminders from mods can be very helpful in restoring conversations to the proper boundaries if things get too intense

Also just as a general point, I do think these threads help shape the overall hobby. The online world and offline world are certainly different, but a lot of these conversations to help set the norms so if people think prices are reasonable, they should weigh in in my view, if they think they are unreasonable they should also weigh in.

Civil discussion of the price change is fine. I was merely addressing the idea that this somehow constitutes making a point to the publisher, which again, it is not.

Fair enough. I still would argue that this is one arena where people can voice their opinion on matters in the hobby. It is a large forum with lots of active threads and quite popular. I do agree it isn't the same as directly contacting a publisher to give them feedback

History has shown me, very clearly (with attendant foul language and name calling) that, generally speaking, we do not all understand this.

I get this and agree with that aspect of your point.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think that "everyone" (society) pays a LOT more when we choose not to value people and labor.

That's a lesson that we learned before, but it seems that we have to keep re-learning it.

But there is also the question of whether people can afford it. This is always framed as people not being willing to spend over a certain price point for RPGs. But I would contend that is because a lot of people can't afford or can't justify that expense. I hear from people all the time who genuinely can't afford the print version of books (especially when things like shipping become a factor). We all want to get paid for our work, but we also can't insist people pay us if our prices are too high.

Also when we are talking about a company like WOTC, I think the calculus changes. There is a difference between an indie publisher, doing small print runs, who can't keep their cover prices below 50 (it is very expensive to print books especially if you aren't doing large volume and don't have the kinds of marketing and connections a WOTC has). But larger companies can set costs lower. And I think people would be less wary, had there not been a lot of things leading up to this (statements that D&D was undermonetized, the OGL efforts, etc). People get the feeling when that happens that there is probably a lot of money going up to the top and that it is a very different scenario from say a smaller publisher where there are a few people who are making enough money to get by. One thing people should understand though about this industry and points you and others have made that I would agree with is profit margins are very tight, and most companies are not even earning a full time living doing this: most are doing this either for supplementary income or even as a labor of love. A handful are making enough money that publishing alone puts a roof over their head.

My point isn't that inflation isn't a real consideration. Just that even if inflation is occurring, you have to consider what people can afford and what they are willing to spend, and while it is fair for publishers to explain to customers why they are setting the prices where they are (I recently put out a book that was ten dollars more than I wanted it to be and I had to explain that), that doesn't mean anyone is obligated to buy. Our costs may be going up, but their wages might not be going up. And I think publishers would benefit from examining their productions costs, the production expectations and determining if they are realistic in the present economy (and if they were ever realistic).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I think that price level is simply too expensive for most people and it exceeds the value that most would place on a premade RPG and setting (especially since this is a hobby people can make settings and systems for themselves if they really need to). Now not everyone may agree. I am sure plenty of posters have no problem spending those kinds of dollars on a book. .

So I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you're older. One of the issues that older people have (for real!) and the reason that people have this caricature of older people being "cheap" that is also true is that older people have had decades of being used to prices at a certain point. In effect, we have been "anchored" to those prices. So even when we can intellectually understand that prices do change, it's still hard to emotionally understand that prices mean something different now.

If you look back at this post, you can see that the prices aren't actually different in terms of inflation, and that prices have always tended to hover in the $50-$60 price range for a core book. In fact, this price point will be less that the 2014 price point.

So when you say it is too expensive, it is, in fact, less expensive than when it was released in 2014. Again, I understand how it feels emotionally ... but that's not what is happening.

 

[Bedrockgames]

So I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you're older. One of the issues that older people have (for real!) and the reason that people have this caricature of older people being "cheap" that is also true is that older people have had decades of being used to prices at a certain point. In effect, we have been "anchored" to those prices. So even when we can intellectually understand that prices do change, it's still hard to emotionally understand that prices mean something different now.

If you look back at this post, you can see that the prices aren't actually different in terms of inflation, and that prices have always tended to hover in the $50-$60 price range for a core book. In fact, this price point will be less that the 2014 price point.

So when you say it is too expensive, it is, in fact, less expensive than when it was released in 2014. Again, I understand how it feels emotionally ... but that's not what is happening.

I am late 40s. I understand the inflation. And there are different measures of inflation and where the price ought to be is something people can debate. But costs have been rising rapidly and my point is for many, wages are not going up sufficiently. So it is I think also a matter of affordability. Like I said for others this may not be the case. I know when I weigh what I pay in gas, food, rent, etc against book cover prices, it becomes harder and harder for me to justify the expense as prices hit these points (and I hear from plenty of people who aren’t older who have the same experience).

To be this isn’t about emotions, it is about affordability. One consequence of the kind of inflation we have seen is people cut back and tighten budgets.

I did see the linked post (my post above was also meant as a response to that)

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I am late 40s. I understand the inflation. And there are different measures of inflation and where the price ought to be is something people can debate. But costs have been rising rapidly and my point is for many, wages are not going up sufficiently. So it is I think also a matter of affordability. Like I said for others this may not be the case. I know when I weigh what I pay in gas, food, rent, etc against book cover prices, it becomes harder and harder for me to justify the expense as prices hit these points (and I hear from plenty of people who aren’t older who have the same experience).

To be this isn’t about emotions, it is about affordability. One consequence of the kind of inflation we have seen is people cut back and tighten budgets.

Thank you for the response- I will point out a few things, again.

First, as I pointed out, it is easy to say that you intellectually understand something, but it is much harder to say that you emotionally understand something. You are, quite literally, arguing against basic facts by trying to claim that there are different measures! Feel free to use whatever measure you want for inflation or CPI, but you'll find the same thing- the 2024 core books will be cheaper than the 2014 core books! Cheaper. And this is right now ... this isn't next year, when they will be cheaper still. And this isn't five or ten years years from now, when (because they tend to hold prices on books for a long time) they will be cheaper still. They are raising the prices now, but the price will continue to go down (as did the 2014 books) relative to inflation until they are forced to increase them again. I feel like I just had a long post about this! With like, figures and everything?????

Next, as has been repeatedly pointed out, not only are the books cheaper than they were when they were introduced in 2014, but the actual costs are much higher because of the changes in the publishing industry. Sure- it's not like WoTC is losing money, but they aren't even making the same profit.

Third, the complaints about wages is somewhat bizarre given WoTC pays fair wages within the industry for their work. Moreover, as has been pointed out, creatives at WoTC and Paizo and elsewhere (other than you) want these prices to increase so that they can charge more and so that their wages can increase.

Fourth, and more importantly, TTRPG books are a bargain compared to other entertainment. You can get years or even decades of enjoyment from the purchase. But yes, if the price is too high (EVEN THOUGH IT IS LESS THAN 2014!!!!) don't buy it! That's economics.

Fifth, there are numerous options, from used books to the free basic set. It is somewhat unbecoming for people to complain that they are raising prices that do not even keep pace with inflation given the numerous available options that are cheap and/or free.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Thank you for the response- I will point out a few things, again.

First, as I pointed out, it is easy to say that you intellectually understand something, but it is much harder to say that you emotionally understand something. You are, quite literally, arguing against basic facts by trying to claim that there are different measures! Feel free to use whatever measure you want for inflation or CPI, but you'll find the same thing- the 2024 core books will be cheaper than the 2014 core books! Cheaper. And this is right now ... this isn't next year, when they will be cheaper still. And this isn't five or ten years years from now, when (because they tend to hold prices on books for a long time) they will be cheaper still. They are raising the prices now, but the price will continue to go down (as did the 2014 books) relative to inflation until they are forced to increase them again. I feel like I just had a long post about this! With like, figures and everything?????

Next, as has been repeatedly pointed out, not only are the books cheaper than they were when they were introduced in 2014, but the actual costs are much higher because of the changes in the publishing industry. Sure- it's not like WoTC is losing money, but they aren't even making the same profit.

Third, the complaints about wages is somewhat bizarre given WoTC pays fair wages within the industry for their work. Moreover, as has been pointed out, creatives at WoTC and Paizo and elsewhere (other than you) want these prices to increase so that they can charge more and so that their wages can increase.

Fourth, and more importantly, TTRPG books are a bargain compared to other entertainment. You can get years or even decades of enjoyment from the purchase. But yes, if the price is too high (EVEN THOUGH IT IS LESS THAN 2014!!!!) don't buy it! That's economics.

Fifth, there are numerous options, from used books to the free basic set. It is somewhat unbecoming for people to complain that they are raising prices that do not even keep pace with inflation given the numerous available options that are cheap and/or free.

My guess is the wages they pay writers are WOTC are not the biggest driver of cover price. This argument also I think kind of uses writers as a way for the company to defend increasing prices

You make very good points but when I talk to people the chief complaint is costs of living are going up and peoples wages aren’t keeping up. I personally am having trouble affording books lately because I have to pay for basics. Many people are in that boat.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Fifth, there are numerous options, from used books to the free basic set. It is somewhat unbecoming for people to complain that they are raising prices that do not even keep pace with inflation given the numerous available options that are cheap and/or free.

And people are doing this. But telling people they can buy them used or just go to the library, that strikes me as a bit callous. I certainly get the sympathy for creatives and their need to earn a living wage (frankly I wish WOTC did what TSR used to and had more full time in house writers----freelance is a very rough way to earn a living). I am a little uncomfortable though with large companies using that argument as a justification for price increases because it places those creatives in a position of defending the higher prices for their livelihood. But we should also sympathize with people saying they can't afford the books where the prices are going. Especially when this is a hobby that spans a wide, wide spectrum of income. People often talk a lot about reaching a more diverse audience.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

And people are doing this. But telling people they can buy them used or just go to the library, that strikes me as a bit callous. I certainly get the sympathy for creatives and their need to earn a living wage (frankly I wish WOTC did what TSR used to and had more full time in house writers----freelance is a very rough way to earn a living). I am a little uncomfortable though with large companies using that argument as a justification for price increases because it places those creatives in a position of defending the higher prices for their livelihood. But we should also sympathize with people saying they can't afford the books where the prices are going. Especially when this is a hobby that spans a wide, wide spectrum of income. People often talk a lot about reaching a more diverse audience.

It is not callous to point out that WoTC publishes a free Basic pdf.
That there is a thriving used book market.
That a group can get together and pool money to purchase a book.
That this is one of the cheapest hobbies around.

Instead, what is bizarre is that there are people that keep demanding that WoTC, in addition to all of this, continue to ... what, subsidize your entertainment preferences?

I will respectfully disagree with you. No matter how you try to gussy it up, you don't have the right to dictate the price that books are sold for, and demand that WoTC keep selling books for the same price for decades despite costs increasing and inflation. And despite it being a NEW PRODUCT that has to have increased work. And, as I've pointed out - that's never been the case in all the history of this product and game.

I wish Netflix gave me 4k on infinite devices for $6.99 a month. That wish, and $10, will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Instead, what is bizarre is that there are people that keep demanding that WoTC, in addition to all of this, continue to ... what, subsidize your entertainment preferences?

I don't think it is a demand to simply say you find the price too high. It is expressing an opinion and hopefully helping contribute to a conversation that helps paint a picture of what people can afford, what they are willing to spend on books, etc. And it is a full conversation. People are also weighing in saying they think the prices are fine. That is the kind of conversation that people should be having in my opinion.

I will respectfully disagree with you. No matter how you try to gussy it up, you don't have the right to dictate the price that books are sold for, and demand that WoTC keep selling books for the same price for decades despite costs increasing and inflation. And despite it being a NEW PRODUCT that has to have increased work. And, as I've pointed out - that's never been the case in all the history of this product and game.

I am not demanding anything. WOTC can do whatever it wants to. But I can give my opinion about the cost of books, the cost of production and where the hobby is at in that respect (and people can disagree and that is fine).

I wish Netflix gave me 4k on infinite devices for $6.99 a month. That wish, and $10, will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Sure, but plenty of people have canceled netflix when they have raised their prices. I personally have limited my streaming to netflix and prime (and my wife would be very happy if we got rid of one of them). I haven't watched any of the new star wars or star trek shows because it just isn't workable in our budget to take on those streaming services. I approach my book spending in the same way. And while no one can demand anything from a company, if the economic realities make the cover prices harder for people to afford, sales will go down

 

[mamba]

My guess is the wages they pay writers are WOTC are not the biggest driver of cover price. This argument also I think kind of uses writers as a way for the company to defend increasing prices

they certainly aren’t, and given the print run sizes of WotC, they become a rounding error (as opposed to for an indie publisher, same effort / cost to create the book, but 1/100th the number of books)

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all things are affected by inflation equally. If gas and rent goes up but everything else stays basically the same, there is little reason to raise book prices. If paper and printing color prices go up, there is.
So the price increase being in line with overall inflation does not really mean anything, esp if half of inflation is greedflation to begin with, ie companies raising profits instead of offsetting rising costs.

Also, number of pages keeps going down while the prices stayed the same, that is also an ‘invisible’ price increase. If Amazon is correct, Glory of Giants is 192 pages, when we are used to 224, 256, or more in some cases.

The new core books should reverse that trend again, but it shows that books are not really priced based on manufacturing cost, otherwise a book with 200 pages should be cheaper than one with 300.

Finally, this will be the new price point for some years, so it has to factor in future inflation as well and kind of average it out. I.e. they make more profit now on $60 books than they will going forward, as future inflation will keep chipping away at the profits.

So there are a ton of factors here the ‘the price increase is in line with inflation’ line ignores. This is not just a matter of bringing your current profit in line again, and it could have waited some time too, WotC was not exactly struggling because of inflation. They saw an opportunity, they ceased it, it could have happened a year from now just as well, it could have been a smaller increase. Ultimately this is not about the price WotC needs, it is about maximizing profits, it always is.

 

[TwoSix]

And people are doing this. But telling people they can buy them used or just go to the library, that strikes me as a bit callous. I certainly get the sympathy for creatives and their need to earn a living wage (frankly I wish WOTC did what TSR used to and had more full time in house writers----freelance is a very rough way to earn a living). I am a little uncomfortable though with large companies using that argument as a justification for price increases because it places those creatives in a position of defending the higher prices for their livelihood. But we should also sympathize with people saying they can't afford the books where the prices are going. Especially when this is a hobby that spans a wide, wide spectrum of income. People often talk a lot about reaching a more diverse audience.

I can sympathize with the fact that wages aren't keeping up with inflation, but that isn't WotC's fault.

And let's be frank. At the core, a revised version of a 10 year old game that's perfectly playable just by doing some googling for SRD info is a luxury good. If your economic situation precludes buying luxury goods, that's unfortunate but sometimes unavoidable.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I can sympathize with the fact that wages aren't keeping up with inflation, but that isn't WotC's fault.

Of course it isn’t there fault. But if wages aren’t up enough, publishers need to balance inflation against what people can or are willing to spend. That is why I said publishers as a whole should take a good look at ways to reduce production cost

And let's be frank. At the core, a revised version of a 10 year old game that's perfectly playable just by doing some googling for SRD info is a luxury good. If your economic situation precludes buying luxury goods, that's unfortunate but sometimes unavoidable.

Again, I think books ought to be affordable abd not luxury items. But this just goes to my point: if the cover price is too costly for people they will just stop buying the books, reduce their buying and or resort to SRDs, making their own version of the game, relying on old editions, used boots of cheaper RPGs. In the present economy I think that is a very real thing publishers have to consider