D&D 5E The Printers Can't Handle WotC's One D&D Print Runs!

One of the reasons why the three new core rulebooks next year will not be released together is because D&D is such a juggernaut that the printers can't actually handle the size of the print runs!

Jeremy Crawford told Polygon "Our print runs are pretty darn big and printers are telling us you can’t give us these three books at the same time.” And Chris Perkins added that "The print runs we’re talking about are massive. That’s been not only true of the core books, but also Tasha’s Cauldron. It’s what we call a high-end problem."

 

[Velderan]

Again, I think books ought to be affordable abd not luxury items. But this just goes to my point: if the cover price is too costly for people they will just stop buying the books, reduce their buying and or resort to SRDs, making their own version of the game, relying on old editions, used boots of cheaper RPGs. In the present economy I think that is a very real thing publishers have to consider

And I'm going to go out on a limb and guess they are considering that since they do conduct surveys to gather metrics to understand their audience. If an extra $10 profit per book offsets the projected lower number of sales, it's worth it.

And I'm sorry, but you'd be hard pressed to make a convincing argument about how a game where you pretend to be an elf won't always be considered a luxury item. They're entertainment items and assuming you're not a shelf collector who buys every book just because, the value the books typically hold in play hours is well worth the $60 if not more. My table of 7 spent 72 3 hour sessions playing our last campaign, which cost $50 to run.

 

[TwoSix]

Of course it isn’t there fault. But if wages aren’t up enough, publishers need to balance inflation against what people can or are willing to spend. That is why I said publishers as a whole should take a good look at ways to reduce production cost

I mean, they can do that, for sure, but what are we willing to sacrifice to hit a $50 or $40 price point? Page count? Full color art? Cheaper paper? Softcover instead of hardcover?

I know for me personally, I'm more likely to drop $70 on a nice book than $50 on an abridged, lesser quality version. But I understand not everyone is in a position to be less sensitive to price point.

Again, I think books ought to be affordable abd not luxury items. But this just goes to my point: if the cover price is too costly for people they will just stop buying the books, reduce their buying and or resort to SRDs, making their own version of the game, relying on old editions, used boots of cheaper RPGs. In the present economy I think that is a very real thing publishers have to consider

I mean, I'm sure WotC is aware of this, and they're making the decision they think will maximize revenue. Maybe they're wrong! I'd say we'll find out, but ultimately the possible success of a $50 2024 PHB will always be a hypothetical.

 

[Oofta]

Of course it isn’t there fault. But if wages aren’t up enough, publishers need to balance inflation against what people can or are willing to spend. That is why I said publishers as a whole should take a good look at ways to reduce production cost

Again, I think books ought to be affordable abd not luxury items. But this just goes to my point: if the cover price is too costly for people they will just stop buying the books, reduce their buying and or resort to SRDs, making their own version of the game, relying on old editions, used boots of cheaper RPGs. In the present economy I think that is a very real thing publishers have to consider

Define "people". Someone that is living on the street because they can't afford rent wont be able to afford it. Elon Musk could buy WOTC out tomorrow so he could run it into the ground just for funzies. The vast majority of people who have ever been in a position to buy the books can still buy the books. TTRPGs are one of the cheapest forms of entertainment out there, cost of the product is not the biggest barrier people face. Finding a group, finding the time to play, understanding the rules are a far bigger barrier.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, they can do that, for sure, but what are we willing to sacrifice to hit a $50 or $40 price point? Page count? Full color art? Cheaper paper? Softcover instead of hardcover?

I know for me personally, I'm more likely to drop $70 on a nice book than $50 on an abridged, lesser quality version. But I understand not everyone is in a position to be less sensitive to price point.

To be honest 70 is a pretty steep cut off for me. I just wouldn't spend that on an RPG book. That said, cheeper doesn't have to mean lower quality. I don't know what WOTCs pre-production and production costs are, so I can't say where they may be able to cut.

Personally I prefer black and white to full color, so I would be fine with them making that kind of change (or at least reducing the amount of full color art). The 5E books had a lot of full color art in them. But people are going to have different opinions on that. When it comes to the page count, I would prefer lower page count even if the overall price is still more (I think the key thing is keeping these cover prices under 50). One thing I notice with WOTC books is they probably could have a bit more brevity to them. Again this is a flavor and taste thing, so not everyone will agree.

Still I would imagine that those kinds of costs are a bigger price cover consideration for smaller companies like myself than WOTC. Given how much marketing they do, and that they have full time staff, I am guessing a lot of the cost is going into things we don't see (which isn't to say they are unimportant things, I just think focusing on art, writing, editing etc and having the argument be do want these things or a higher cost might not be the complete picture and it might unfairly put the creatives on the front line of this debate)

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

To be honest 70 is a pretty steep cut off for me. I just wouldn't spend that on an RPG book. That said, cheeper doesn't have to mean lower quality. I don't know what WOTCs pre-production and production costs are, so I can't say where they may be able to cut.

Personally I prefer black and white to full color, so I would be fine with them making that kind of change (or at least reducing the amount of full color art).

I would pay $100 a book for a Bard-free edition.

thinking....


That's my opening bid.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Define "people". Someone that is living on the street because they can't afford rent wont be able to afford it. Elon Musk could buy WOTC out tomorrow so he could run it into the ground just for funzies. The vast majority of people who have ever been in a position to buy the books can still buy the books. TTRPGs are one of the cheapest forms of entertainment out there, cost of the product is not the biggest barrier people face. Finding a group, finding the time to play, understanding the rules are a far bigger barrier.

There is a spectrum of people between living on the street and those who can easily afford to buy expensive books. When I say people, I mean gamers I know and people I know. A lot of my friends are on budgets, have financial difficulties, etc. I also hear from people who contact me because of my publishing company and will explain to me that they can't afford one of my books. There are people who are working who can't buy them. There are people who are disabled who maybe aren't working as much they used to, who can't afford them. There are people who have a family and are just getting by and can't afford them. There are a lot of people who are working class, poor and working poor in this country. And many of them are gamers.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And I'm sorry, but you'd be hard pressed to make a convincing argument about how a game where you pretend to be an elf won't always be considered a luxury item. They're entertainment items and assuming you're not a shelf collector who buys every book just because, the value the books typically hold in play hours is well worth the $60 if not more. My table of 7 spent 72 3 hour sessions playing our last campaign, which cost $50 to run.

We might be defining luxury item differently. But I just don't see books or PRGs in general as luxury item. I consider things like fur coats, yachts, and designer bags to be luxury items. I don't think the RPG hobby is a luxury hobby. It isn't skiing or an activity like that which requires large investment. And hopefully we can maintain that in the hobby.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I would pay $100 a book for a Bard-free edition.

thinking....


That's my opening bid.

Lol. Fair enough. I'd cut out feats

 

[TwoSix]

To be honest 70 is a pretty steep cut off for me. I just wouldn't spend that on an RPG book. That said, cheeper doesn't have to mean lower quality. I don't know what WOTCs pre-production and production costs are, so I can't say where they may be able to cut.

Personally I prefer black and white to full color, so I would be fine with them making that kind of change (or at least reducing the amount of full color art). The 5E books had a lot of full color art in them. But people are going to have different opinions on that. When it comes to the page count, I would prefer lower page count even if the overall price is still more (I think the key thing is keeping these cover prices under 50). One thing I notice with WOTC books is they probably could have a bit more brevity to them. Again this is a flavor and taste thing, so not everyone will agree.

Cheaper doesn't have to mean lower-quality, but it usually does.

And yea, this is definitely a case where tastes differ. I'm not a fan of B&W art, and will pay a premium for pretty, full-color art.

Still I would imagine that those kinds of costs are a bigger price cover consideration for smaller companies like myself than WOTC. Given how much marketing they do, and that they have full time staff, I am guessing a lot of the cost is going into things we don't see (which isn't to say they are unimportant things, I just think focusing on art, writing, editing etc and having the argument be do want these things or a higher cost might not be the complete picture and it might unfairly put the creatives on the front line of this debate)

Oh yea, I'm sure the money is the result of many different departments contributing, as opposed to the pretty obvious expenditures of a one-man shop selling a PDF on DriveThruRPG or Itch.io. But there's obviously some kind of value add from that, or we wouldn't be talking about this, and instead we would just be buying PDFs from those one-man shops.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

We might be defining luxury item differently. But I just don't see books or PRGs in general as luxury item. I consider things like fur coats, yachts, and designer bags to be luxury items. I don't think the RPG hobby is a luxury hobby. It isn't skiing or an activity like that which requires large investment. And hopefully we can maintain that in the hobby.

Luxury as in not a necessity, like food. If you compare the dollar cost per unit time of RPG books, even at a much higher price point than they are now, it's a far, far cheaper activity than:

• going to a restaurant
• going to a movie
• going to a sporting event
• hitting the bars
• just about any other form of entertainment out there

I just can't agree with your complaint. No one is being priced out of the hobby.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Cheaper paper?

This is really a side point I am making, but one thing to consider when you buy books is this is often going to be happening anyways

 

[Echohawk]

I can sympathize with the fact that wages aren't keeping up with inflation, but that isn't WotC's fault.

At least in the US, wages do keep up with inflation on average. But there is a lot hidden in that "on average" part. Changes in income are much more jagged then the inflation rate, so wages tend to lag behind inflation some of the time, and run ahead of inflation the rest of the time. More importantly, wage increases tend to favor those with a higher income, so for any one individual the odds are quite high that that person's experience doesn't match the average. This is a good (and current) article summarizing the issues around cost of living versus inflation in the US.

It's probably also worth observing that the world is bigger than the just the US, and price hikes generally have an even more significant impact elsewhere. A US$60 book represents 5% of the average monthly salary in my country and that's before the cost of shipping is factored in. I'm fortunate enough to still able to maintain a D&D Beyond subscription and buy an occasional D&D book, but I'm well aware of my own privilege and appreciative of all the cheaper options available to those who can't. In particular, the fact that I can share D&D Beyond content I've purchased with my players is a big deal, and I'm enormously grateful for that possibility.

 

[Bedrockgames]

they certainly aren’t, and given the print run sizes of WotC, they become a rounding error (as opposed to for an indie publisher, same effort / cost to create the book, but 1/100th the number of books)

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all things are affected by inflation equally. If gas and rent goes up but everything else stays basically the same, there is little reason to raise book prices. If paper and printing color prices go up, there is.
So the price increase being in line with overall inflation does not really mean anything, esp if half of inflation is greedflation to begin with, ie companies raising profits instead of offsetting rising costs.

Also, number of pages keeps going down while the prices stayed the same, that is also an ‘invisible’ price increase. If Amazon is correct, Glory of Giants is 192 pages, when we are used to 224, 256, or more in some cases.

The new core books should reverse that trend again, but it shows that books are not really priced based on manufacturing cost, otherwise a book with 200 pages should be cheaper than one with 300.

Finally, this will be the new price point for some years, so it has to factor in future inflation as well and kind of average it out. I.e. they make more profit now on $60 books than they will going forward, as future inflation will keep chipping away at the profits.

So there are a ton of factors here the ‘the price increase is in line with inflation’ line ignores. This is not just a matter of bringing your current profit in line again, and it could have waited some time too, WotC was not exactly struggling because of inflation. They saw an opportunity, they ceased it, it could have happened a year from now just as well, it could have been a smaller increase. Ultimately this is not about the price WotC needs, it is about maximizing profits, it always is.

I agree with many of your points, but one thing to consider is when fuel costs increase that drives everything up. I have no doubt there are also companies that use rising prices or the threat of them, as an excuse to raise prices and increase profit margins, but I can say when I went to publish a book last year, two of the reasons I was informed the price had to be raised was because of paper and shipping (and I was told this was due to fuel costs). Now it is entirely possible my memory is bad, that I was misinformed, that someone was raising costs and using that as an excuse somewhere in the line. But from my vantage point and memory this resulted in a ten dollar increase in cover cost. However that cover cost increase, in my opinion also negatively affected sales. I can't say that with certainty. But I have a strong sense based on previous releases and numbers that it was a factor (as was the overall increase in cost of living for people I think)

 

[Oofta]

There is a spectrum of people between living on the street and those who can easily afford to buy expensive books. When I say people, I mean gamers I know and people I know. A lot of my friends are on budgets, have financial difficulties, etc. I also hear from people who contact me because of my publishing company and will explain to me that they can't afford one of my books. There are people who are working who can't buy them. There are people who are disabled who maybe aren't working as much they used to, who can't afford them. There are people who have a family and are just getting by and can't afford them. There are a lot of people who are working class, poor and working poor in this country. And many of them are gamers.

I agree, there are a lot of working poor. There will always be and have always been people who cannot afford to buy a book, no matter what price the book is. Games are luxury items, incredibly cheap ones, but still. If you have a group of 6 people and they split the cost of a new book we're talking less than a $2 per person increase.

I want WOTC to make a reasonable profit so they stay in business and continue to produce material. I don't technically need anything new, I run a home brew campaign so I don't have to buy another book ever. But I want the hobby to continue to flourish and grow, that requires a healthy company backing it.

As I stated before, WOTC is not a charity and a price increase after a decade of keeping the lid on costs is not exorbitant.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I mean, they can do that, for sure, but what are we willing to sacrifice to hit a $50 or $40 price point? Page count? Full color art? Cheaper paper? Softcover instead of hardcover?

I know for me personally, I'm more likely to drop $70 on a nice book than $50 on an abridged, lesser quality version. But I understand not everyone is in a position to be less sensitive to price point.


I mean, I'm sure WotC is aware of this, and they're making the decision they think will maximize revenue. Maybe they're wrong! I'd say we'll find out, but ultimately the possible success of a $50 2024 PHB will always be a hypothetical.

I would be willing to sacrifice everything you mentioned except page count.

 

[TwoSix]

At least in the US, wages do keep up with inflation on average. But there is a lot hidden in that "on average" part. Changes in income are much more jagged then the inflation rate, so wages tend to lag behind inflation some of the time, and run ahead of inflation the rest of the time. More importantly, wage increases tend to favor those with a higher income, so for any one individual the odds are quite high that that person's experience doesn't match the average. This is a good (and current) article summarizing the issues around cost of living versus inflation in the US.

It's probably also worth observing that the world is bigger than the just the US, and price hikes generally have an even more significant impact elsewhere. A US$60 book represents 5% of the average monthly salary in my country and that's before the cost of shipping is factored in. I'm fortunate enough to still able to maintain a D&D Beyond subscription and buy an occasional D&D book, but I'm well aware of my own privilege and appreciative of all the cheaper options available to those who can't. In particular, the fact that I can share D&D Beyond content I've purchased with my players is a big deal, and I'm enormously grateful for that possibility.

Sure, I definitely agree with all of that.

I'd boil this conversation down to two different questions, which I think are sometimes getting conflated.

1) Is WotC's new price point too high, to the point where lost sales will actually cause a loss of possible revenue, and maybe damage further adoption of the system? That seems like a business and marketing question, and way beyond my ability to answer.

2) Does WotC have an obligation to keep their core products at a lower price point in order to allow as broad a spectrum of players as possible to access the core game? That's an ethical question (although maintaining a large player base has financial implications as well), and while I have an opinion, I don't think a consensus answer is possible to reach.

 

[mamba]

I agree with many of your points, but one thing to consider is when fuel costs increase that drives everything up.

yes, certainly, the question is by how much. I didn’t mean to say gas prices have no effect on book prices, but it is a rather diminished one compared to the actual increase of the gas price

when I went to publish a book last year, two of the reasons I was informed the price had to be raised was because of paper and shipping (and I was told this was due to fuel costs). Now it is entirely possible my memory is bad, that I was misinformed, that someone was raising costs and using that as an excuse somewhere in the line. But from my vantage point and memory this resulted in a ten dollar increase in cover cost.

shipping costs have gone down significantly since

Global shipping costs are returning to pre-pandemic levels

But a wave of covid-19 cases in China threatens to disrupt global supply chains once more

www.economist.com

 

[codo]

Define "people". Someone that is living on the street because they can't afford rent wont be able to afford it. Elon Musk could buy WOTC out tomorrow so he could run it into the ground just for funzies. The vast majority of people who have ever been in a position to buy the books can still buy the books. TTRPGs are one of the cheapest forms of entertainment out there, cost of the product is not the biggest barrier people face. Finding a group, finding the time to play, understanding the rules are a far bigger barrier.

I just did some back of the envelope calculation on what my group has spend on 5e. I think in total we have bought around 15 books in 10 years. At 50 bucks a book, that is around $750 combined. Split 6 ways over 10 years comes out to $12.50 per person per year. That is literally pennies per hour to play D&D.

 

[Umbran]

We might be defining luxury item differently. But I just don't see books or PRGs in general as luxury item. I consider things like fur coats, yachts, and designer bags to be luxury items. I don't think the RPG hobby is a luxury hobby. It isn't skiing or an activity like that which requires large investment. And hopefully we can maintain that in the hobby.

I think he's using "luxury" as in contrast to "necessary".
Yes, a fur coat is a luxury. But so is a Starbucks specialty coffee.

 

[Oofta]

I think he's using "luxury" as in contrast to "necessary".
Yes, a fur coat is a luxury. But so is a Starbucks specialty coffee.

Caffeine is a necessity of life. Do not take my wake-me-up nectar away!

P.S. I kid, of course. I think I stopped at a Starbucks once.