The problem with D&D

[pawsplay]

Let me recommend Hero System, GURPS, D6 Fantasy, Talislanta, and Warhammer FRP as excellent alternatives to D&D. Warhammer, in particular, has incremental advancement, trait by trait, and plays very fast.

 

[Urban Knight]

So.. did you just come here to complain? Maybe you should spend a year or so and develop your perfect system. Come back to us when you have it finished.

As much as I would love to be able to take a year of my life out and design the perfect system I don't think the company I work for or my soon to be wife would appreciate it.

Also to be honest it would probably suck, otherwise I would already be an acomplished games designer.

As I see it this thread wasn't started by Xini to complain, it was to see if other people agree or disagree that there are what we percive as inherent flaws in anotherwise enjoyable game.

If they do, what do they do about it - The consensus seems to be don't play D&D.

Reading through the threads it seems (to me at least) there are people who agree that D&D is 'flawed' and play something else.
People who see the 'flaws' as 'characterful' and play inspite or because of them.
and
People those that misinterpret the tone of the thread as 'I hate D&D and all who play it' and get highly defensive or just down right insulting (which are just plain funny )

 

[Hussar]

The problem with that though is demographics - per RAW 3e, 10th is only the high end of "mid level". Applying the DMG NPC demographics makes it impossible to run anything resembling a traditional fantasy or swords & sorcery setting, though Hong Kong Action Cinema (Zu Warriors of the Magic Mountain et al) or high-powered Anime are doable in 3e, apart from the square-counting getting in the way of the action.

S'mon, this is mistaken. The levels of locals by RAW means that about 99% of people are 1st level commoners. I'm not sure what NPC's in the Community section of the DMG you are looking at, but the one that's staring me in the face right now says that you have one classed local, with another at half his level (rounded down) and possibly a couple more after that. Given a small town of 1500 people, you have about two dozen classed individuals and the rest are 1st level commoners.

I don't know why you would say this. The absolute maximum level of any class by RAW is 20 (and that's only a 1 in 8 chance in a Metropolis) with casters being limited to 18 (1 in 6 in a metro). Wizzies never get higher than 16th by RAW. Considering most settings shouldn't even HAVE a metropolis, keeping your levels down with demographics is very, very easy.

 

[Hussar]

As much as I would love to be able to take a year of my life out and design the perfect system I don't think the company I work for or my soon to be wife would appreciate it.

Also to be honest it would probably suck, otherwise I would already be an acomplished games designer.

As I see it this thread wasn't started by Xini to complain, it was to see if other people agree or disagree that there are what we percive as inherent flaws in anotherwise enjoyable game.

If they do, what do they do about it - The consensus seems to be don't play D&D.

Reading through the threads it seems (to me at least) there are people who agree that D&D is 'flawed' and play something else.
People who see the 'flaws' as 'characterful' and play inspite or because of them.
and
People those that misinterpret the tone of the thread as 'I hate D&D and all who play it' and get highly defensive or just down right insulting (which are just plain funny )

You missed the other group who thinks that these aren't flaws at all and play BECAUSE of them. The class system, Vancian magic, the flat d20 roll, have all been part of D&D since its beginning. Stripping out any or all of these elements would pretty much make the game unrecognizable to many people.

Sorry, but, characterizing people who play in spite of the flaws doesn't describe an awful lot of people. Many people are perfectly content with the underlying system as is, even if they change the body that goes over the chassis. The incredible success of d20 pretty much shows that to be true. The fact that d20 D&D is so far ahead of pretty much any other system in terms of numbers of players pretty much shows that most people are perfectly fine with D&D as written.

 

[Jdvn1]

Of course. Howerver, the whole things depends on the individual source one uses as a guideline, at what level an individual pegs a specific hero, and at what point a given's suspension of disbelief is exceeded.

Of course. That's why I tried to use very diverse examples. On the other hand, I have difficulty thinking of heroes that couldn't take on a number of baddies, except for ones that didn't fight at all, like Sherlock Holmes (though, he could certainly out-think a large number of baddies--and that's just another way of overcoming an encounter).

Just because a given hero without some super humanpower withstands a few sword blows or gunshots doesn't mean that a bullet or sword blow scoring a critical hit cannot kill them (theoretically). However, some people will place the hero at a specific level where a maxed damaged crit from a sword or bullet has no chance of killing the character simply the character is a hero.

Well, I tried to choose lower-level examples--at least, examples that had no superpowers. The TMNT is a border example, probably, though the four of them combined had significant trouble against Shredder anyway. And, I think in all of these examples, the hero fought enough baddies that they would have suffered critical hits every once in a while.

 

[Jdvn1]

And that's my point. Some people like that kind of over the top action with all kinds of kewl powers. Apparently a lot of people like that actually, since D&D is the most popular rpg out there by far. And that's ok.

Jackie Chan has kewl powers? He's just highly trained, I thought.

 

[Urban Knight]

You missed the other group who thinks that these aren't flaws at all and play BECAUSE of them. The class system, Vancian magic, the flat d20 roll, have all been part of D&D since its beginning. Stripping out any or all of these elements would pretty much make the game unrecognizable to many people.
.

I didn't say that every one saw these design characteristics as flaws, only that I saw them as flaws and as such continued to (and will continue to) refeer to them as flaws.

That being said we shouldn't mistake market share for a quality product. After all look at Microsoft it is widely accepted that their OS's is full of bugs and security vulnerabilities - and thank god or else I wouldn't have a job

I don't think that any one can dispute that D&D and the D20 system is an excellently marketed product. However just because something is popular doesn't make it perfect.

However I reckon that

 

[Urban Knight]

However I reckon that

... I should proof read a bit better before hitting submit.

Doh!!!

 

[Jawar]

Error message; read the one below.
Sorry.

 

[Jawar]

I thought you were going to add "and always will be...".

:\

Hmmm... Spare me, WotC, I love the setting, and the feel of the game, not the $$$-wise game design:
Another Complete Scum, with more & more options and Pr. Classes and feats and spells?
And another one? Five more? Hasbro should be happy now. No? Maybe Raw Planar Foolishness now, Races of Tomorrow, Total Prestige Hero, aaannnnd Complete... Cuisine!
Excerpt option: Rogues may now trade 3D6 sneak for Formidable Diarrea on each sneak attack!

Bah.
Still love the game though. Mostly cause the people I play with. We create some really good ambiance, and that is priceless!


PS - I was going to be more sarcastic, but I really appreciate the mod's work and would not like to see his angry face.