The problem with D&D

[Hussar]

I didn't say that every one saw these design characteristics as flaws, only that I saw them as flaws and as such continued to (and will continue to) refeer to them as flaws.

That being said we shouldn't mistake market share for a quality product. After all look at Microsoft it is widely accepted that their OS's is full of bugs and security vulnerabilities - and thank god or else I wouldn't have a job

I don't think that any one can dispute that D&D and the D20 system is an excellently marketed product. However just because something is popular doesn't make it perfect.

However I reckon that

Ah, yes, the old quantity vs quality argument. Never really goes out of style does it?

It doesn't really matter if you refer to them as flaws, pros or small billy goats. The point is, the vast majority of gamers prefer 3e. You can say its all because of marketing and that's fair I suppose. I say its because the vast majority of gamers out there prefer a better quality product. I say its because gamers prefer games that don't require the players to rework the rules.

Who's right? Dunno. But, if you refer to a game's flaws, at least pick out genuine ones. Heck 3e has more than enough of them. Class system, Vancian magic and the d20 are hardly sole features of 3rd edition. If those were truly flaws, dontcha think that the gaming public might have caught on to a better system after thirty years or so?

 

[green slime]

My main issue with games, isn't the games themselves per se, but with people. All of humanity is in bad shape, so why should we expect anything more from our game(s)?

 

[S'mon]

Considering most settings shouldn't even HAVE a metropolis, keeping your levels down with demographics is very, very easy.

Eh, wot? A 'metropolis' is only 25,000 adults per DMG, plenty of the cities in Greyhawk have that number or higher, in fact I think most of the national capitals do, and Greyhawk is about the most medieval-y, least urban, of the main campaign settings! In something more like the classical world/Nehwon/Young Kingdoms model common to swords & sorcery, of which my own campaign world is typical, you're looking at far more 'metropolises', with total populations up to around 1 million (Imperial Rome, Byzantium at its peak, Peking).

And remember you're rolling 4 times per class per metropolis! Per DMG RAW each 25,000+ city has four Wizard of level 12+1d4, 4 Fighters of level 12+1d8 (& 8 of half that), 4 Druids, etc etc etc. You will have a good few level 16+ NPCs in every one.

This is way too much even for Gygaxian Greyhawk IMO, never mind Wilderlands or Nehwon. For one thing it renders conventional armies useless - maybe the kingdom can muster 10,000 Warriors, but they're only good for peacekeeping, all the real fighting will be done by the dozens of level 10-20 superheroes. You get something more like 'Way of the Exploding Fist' than LoTR.

So, I change the demographics. No biggy.

 

[Xini]

Ah, yes, the old quantity vs quality argument. Never really goes out of style does it?

It doesn't really matter if you refer to them as flaws, pros or small billy goats. The point is, the vast majority of gamers prefer 3e. You can say its all because of marketing and that's fair I suppose. I say its because the vast majority of gamers out there prefer a better quality product. I say its because gamers prefer games that don't require the players to rework the rules.

Who's right? Dunno. But, if you refer to a game's flaws, at least pick out genuine ones. Heck 3e has more than enough of them. Class system, Vancian magic and the d20 are hardly sole features of 3rd edition. If those were truly flaws, dontcha think that the gaming public might have caught on to a better system after thirty years or so?

I think you mistake my intention and the intention of the discussion which myself and Urban Knight have been having for a while. We don't intend to convert people to our thinking or establish some universal objective truth in regard to role-play games, I can imagine few more fruitless tasks.

My intention, as it seems to be important to people, was simply to have a discussion based around these perceived weaknesses regardless of outcome.

As for reworking the rules etc, yes the rules are organised to the point where the grey areas aren't as prevalent as in many (if not all) other systems but that does not mean that the rules are as good as they can be. If you went to an orchard and picked the best most succulent looking apple would that be the best apple in all the world? Of course not. The point being that gamers have a choice, you can play be these rules or go make your own up which is a lot of work (this I think applies double in D&D because they produce too many "splat" books and trying to incorporate them or tell people that their new purchase was a waste of money is just extra hassle you don't really want). I'm not saying that custom projects don't exist or that people are sheep following the marketing but popular acclaim doesn't equate to it being any good necessarily.

Now there are strengths within these weaknesses which Urban Knight and myself have discussed. However we have made more headway in the analysis and improvements (or potential improvements) by going over the weaknesses and trying to see how to alter them without ruining the strengths or having to rewrite the whole thing. (As you can see I'm more thinking about the suggestion of "house ruling the heck out of it" at the moment and yes I will be checking through the house rules section later.)

So far I've found this to be a good discussion, I'm actually used to far more flaming and abuse than this so you guys are really welcoming

Oh and I have deeper points based on some of the points in the first post (can I call them flaws? please? I can't think of a more accurate word right now) but it'll take a while to produce them.

 

[Xini]

You know... I was going to go into detail with each point but I figure it's far too convoluted to do so adequately here and I doubt that any suggestions would be necessarily well received.

A friend, I think he's on here but I don't know his user name, suggested just imposing a point buy system over D&D. It'd be a lot of work but I figured that by comparing standard break points in the classes you should be able to figure out how much each class features and facet is worth relatively and then use this and see if it works at higher levels. Once in place I guess there would be the possibility to also slow progression without having to stop all advancement for months at a time (my main problem with the whole reduce XP awards solution) but there would have to be cunningly designed limits as in Mutant's & Masterminds to stop a fourth level fighter having a BAB of eleven or something equally ridiculous.

I guess though that for any kind of satisfaction with rules I'm going to have to bribe, intimidate, bluff and diplomacy the group into trying GURPS or something similar.

PS- I do actually own Alternity and yes the rules in there are much better IMO. Shadowrun too with the idea of pools of extra effort to use is also nice.

 

[Umbran]

A friend, I think he's on here but I don't know his user name, suggested just imposing a point buy system over D&D. It'd be a lot of work ...

No it wouldn't, because somebody's already done it: Buy the Numbers is a pdf product that does exactly that.

Personally, I have found point-buy systems to be far more abuseable than classes, while at the same time making it all the less likely that a player who doesnt' have rules-mastery will come up with an ineffective character.

I understand that classes are a bit restrictive, but I wonder if that problem lies as much in the players as the system.

 

[shilsen]

Stop a fourth level fighter having a BAB of eleven or something equally ridiculous.

I presume you meant attack bonus, since a 4th lvl fighter has a fixed BAB of +4. And something not really egregious like a half-orc Ftr4 with 20 Str, a masterwork weapon and Weapon Focus is clocking in at +11.

If that counts as "ridiculous" for you, it really does sound like you should be playing something besides D&D. Even with a boatload of house rules, I don't think you could really make it fit what you want it to.

 

[Umbran]

I presume you meant attack bonus, since a 4th lvl fighter has a fixed BAB of +4. And something not really egregious like a half-orc Ftr4 with 20 Str, a masterwork weapon and Weapon Focus is clocking in at +11.

No, I think he means BAB - he's talking about using a form of point buy system, where the character could buy more BAB is he wanted, and how such a system would need controls to prevent extreme stuff. Of course, the concept of a "fighter" the sense you mean doesn't exist, then, because the class doesn't exist.

 

[Urban Knight]

No it wouldn't, because somebody's already done it: Buy the Numbers is a pdf product that does exactly that.

Umbran thanks for the tip. A points buy D&D based system is the sort of thing I was looking for.

I will be checking this out.

 

[Xini]

Umbran thanks for the tip. A points buy D&D based system is the sort of thing I was looking for.

I will be checking this out.

Well that's one DM open to progression towards a brave new front

I accept that point buy is more open to abuse but I think it's less likely to be abused unless you have some munchkin or power gamer at work *glances at Urban Knight with a smug grin* and there's always a way of "educating" them. I find that sometimes I will deliberately try to get more bang for my buck in D&D precisely because it's so tightly controlled, not that I realise this at the time of course at which point it is a "character feature" or something.

Well we have a 3 week break Mr Knight (I'm sooo waiting for you to get the car now, one with all 4 tires and such oh and the swishy light thing) and as you have nothing better to do I'm sure you can properly analyse this book