The problem with D&D

[Storm Raven]

A game system which represents the cinematic style of a fighter struggling to cope with wounds and the chaos of combat without being alive on minute and dead the next.

Then I really think you should look at GURPS or Hero. Those systems probably give you much more of what you seem to be looking for right out of the box (so to speak).

 

[molonel]

Or, more culturally close to most of the posters here, more like the Iliad.

D&D plays a lot like the various Greek epics. A handful of named heroes and their significant adversaries with a background wash of nameless, faceless (and generally irrelevant) mooks. The heroes and adversaries do everything significant, and mooks that get in their way get tossed aside. Look at D&D from that perspective and it starts to make more thematic sense.

I think of this whenever people try to explain to me that mooks are a modern invention of action movies.

People really should read the classics.

Beowulf is another example of this sort of power disparity between heroes and mooks. In classical myth, champions fight champions. Everyone else stands by and watches.

One of the most powerful beings in all of Middle Earth, Gandalf, is something like a 5th-level Cleric by D&D rules. (Isn't that what the old Dragon article had him pegged at?)

That is, in my humble opinion, absolutely absurd. He was a maiar who defeated a balrog single-handedly. Take a look at how MERP stats him out in LORDS OF MIDDLE-EARTH Vol. 1.

Then I really think you should look at GURPS or Hero. Those systems probably give you much more of what you seem to be looking for right out of the box (so to speak).

I'd like to second the recommendation for GURPS, or perhaps Castles & Crusades.

 

[Xini]

Then I really think you should look at GURPS or Hero. Those systems probably give you much more of what you seem to be looking for right out of the box (so to speak).

Agreed. I've had a look through my GURPS books and the refresher combined with the comments here has persuaded me that it's at least worth a trial. However I am left with persuading the group.

Whilst trying to edge towards trying out GURPS, I've managed to persuade the group to look at "buy the numbers" for the next campaign (the present one is too far in to change so I'm stuck for a while now) so hopefully we're moving toward a more flexible D&D anyway. Perhaps the other DM (Urban Knight) will wish to change rules systems for the next campaign, though I doubt it. Let's face it, if you've bought all those many books your loathed to give up on it despite the annoyances.

 

[Maggan]

Sufficient to say, that at this rate, the F20 dies assaulting the city and we haven't even dealt with how to climb the wall yet.

I did a similar calculation a couple of years ago, basically to test the idea of a 20th level fighter being invincible.

One thing that strikes me when reading your post is that in a world where 20th level fighters exist, people would develop tactics to make it easier for low level soldiers to deal with high level threats.

Like develop special hit squads, or formations, or combinations of weapons and spells designed to specifically deal with high level characters.

Hmmmmm ... I'll throw this at my players and see what they come up with. They will be level 3 officers, and have a couple of hundred level 1 soldiers at their disposal. And then I'll assault their army with a level 20 fighter and see what happens.

/M

 

[Xini]

As promised, more in regard to the philosophical problems with magic.

2 options exist when confronting any problem/ situation/ puzzle etc etc etc when in a fantasy setting with magic.

Assume that magic is not involved unless it is found to be present.

This theory works the first couple of times until you get usurped by magic. As with most things, humans (and by extension metahumans) are learning creatures and so the maxim "once bitten, twice shy" should be considered. Thus after the first surprise it'd be more likely that the person would move to theory 2. Each surprise would increase this chance.

Assume that magic is involved.

Right well if you assume that magic is always involved and that magic has such limitless potential then you can now rely on nothing. Up is down and they are you. Simply put the person would descend into paranoia and madness quite swiftly.


For these reasons, at least, I look at changing magic (preferably as subtly as possible so as not to invalidate a load of books or require huge reworks to other material).

 

[S'mon]

Round 9: 18d6, 67 dead mooks

BTW I notice that in your example the archers are firing straight through their own guys! What are they using, Phase Arrows?

I agree of course that massed bow fire is how you deal with high level Fighters; although in regular 3e the Fighter will normally have Stoneskin and/or Prot fr Arrows precast on him to mitigate this.

No morale rules in 3e, you're supposed to eyeball it. Personally I use B/X's 2d6, roll high to fail. The bell curve works better than a d20 roll for modelling NPC group dynamics.

 

[hong]

I agree of course that massed bow fire is how you deal with high level Fighters; although in regular 3e the Fighter will normally have Stoneskin and/or Prot fr Arrows precast on him to mitigate this.

Prove it.

 

[Hussar]

BTW I notice that in your example the archers are firing straight through their own guys! What are they using, Phase Arrows?

I agree of course that massed bow fire is how you deal with high level Fighters; although in regular 3e the Fighter will normally have Stoneskin and/or Prot fr Arrows precast on him to mitigate this.

No morale rules in 3e, you're supposed to eyeball it. Personally I use B/X's 2d6, roll high to fail. The bell curve works better than a d20 roll for modelling NPC group dynamics.

What, no response to the Mob rules?

Ok, tanglefoot bags on the fighter until he can no longer move, then massed arrow fire. Chuck 40 tanglefoot bags at him every round, and he is immobile. Dead fighter.

20th level wizzies are a different story altoghter. But fighters? Piffle.

 

[green slime]

20th level fighters are just as likely as the wizards to carry a surperflous amount of magical weaponry and gear as a wizard. In fact, even more so. They are far more likely to have a helmet of teleportation, if for no other reason than it will be the only possible way for them to teleport out of a situation when it gets hairy, unlike the wizard who can prepare the spell.

 

[painandgreed]

BTW I notice that in your example the archers are firing straight through their own guys! What are they using, Phase Arrows?

I agree of course that massed bow fire is how you deal with high level Fighters; although in regular 3e the Fighter will normally have Stoneskin and/or Prot fr Arrows precast on him to mitigate this.

No morale rules in 3e, you're supposed to eyeball it. Personally I use B/X's 2d6, roll high to fail. The bell curve works better than a d20 roll for modelling NPC group dynamics.

Just as there are no moral rules in RAW, shooting though your own people does not block line of sight and is only +4 AC for cover (and a -4 for the attacker if in melee). Since we are already assuming a hit only on natural 20's, it's a non-issue. Besides, I specifically put them at the top of the wall for clear line of sight just to avoid that arguement.

Mob idea would also work and solve lots of rolling of dice.

Another tactics would be splash weapons. Melee fighters alone with splash weapons could aim at the AC 5 grid intersection and do 1 hp damage on hit. If surrounded by two ranks, they can probably average better damage than the 'only hit on 20' tactic.

We are ingnoring other transportation methods such as flying and teleportation because it was stated, IIRC, that a F20 could "walk into Troy any time he wanted" and though W1 and "wouldn't even notice they're there". We are still forgetting that the thing that really stopped the Greeks was not the warriors of Troy but the walls.

Now we're to the point where we have to say that a F20 properly prepared with the a collection of potions could walk though out W1s wihtout noticing. Even then, the Protection from Arrows, Protection from Energy (acid and fire), and Stonskin add a certain number of hit points to their total. He coudl walk to the walls but with the constant drinking of potions, which doesn't really count as not noticing they're there. Seems the mob option would bypass much of this protection.