D&D General The Problem with Evil or what if we don't use alignments?

[Faolyn]

How about having tusks and having previous lore that said pig people?

Since the current art is not at all pig-like...

 

[Maxperson]

I lawful + chaotic = lawful (and presumably chaotic + lawful equals chaotic), then that just shows that the alignments can be stretched to the point of uselessness.

No it doesn't. If you think it does, it shows a lack of understanding on your part. I've explained how it works. If you don't want to see it, then that's fine. Don't use alignment. Don't try to stick it to us because of your lack of understanding, though. We find great use in our understanding of alignment and want to see it stay.

 

[Faolyn]

I'm just going to throw this out there, every campaign I run, or have ever run, has some sort of 'evil' race. Every. Single. One. Fantasy is a subset of romance, and it needs a certain amount of black and white to function, even in the grimmest of grimdark settings. There's no light without shadow and all that. Now, pretty obviously this needs to be done without racial shading of any kind, but there's nothing wrong with the basic idea.

Yes, we all know this. But that evil race could be something a lot different than a mortal humanoid creature.

 

[Maxperson]

Since the current art is not at all pig-like...

The description is what matters, not the failure of the artist and WotC approval person. If you read the description, they are in fact pig people.

 

[Fenris-77]

Mmm, lawful and chaotic are probably the most useful parts of the alignment spectrum. How they look, and might work in practice, isn't exactly rocket science.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, we all know this. But that evil race could be something a lot different than a mortal humanoid creature.

How different do you want it to be? Mind Flayers are humanoid and mortal, but seem alien enough to me. Not that I have a problem with any humanoid, but I'm just seeing how far you want it taken.

 

[Hex08]

For lots of cis-white males like me, all sorts of issues are "non-issues". We need to be more attentive to all those who say they ARE issues, and then listen.

Totally misses my point. I said that there is likely a large portion of the player base who isn't aware this is being discussed because they don't follow the hobby online. It is impossible for those people to be attentive and listen because the debate in question isn't even a thing they are aware of and probably never will be. You are placing an impossible burden on that portion of the player base.

 

[Fenris-77]

Yes, we all know this. But that evil race could be something a lot different than a mortal humanoid creature.

Or it could be just that. Barring racialization, you have nothing to bark about.

 

[Faolyn]

No it doesn't. If you think it does, it shows a lack of understanding on your part. I've explained how it works. If you don't want to see it, then that's fine. Don't use alignment. Don't try to stick it to us because of your lack of understanding, though. We find great use in our understanding of alignment and want to see it stay.

You said "Basically, you look at a personality and each alignment is a box. The biggest box is your alignment. The rest are the aspects that fall outside of your alignment. If they're mostly the same size, you're neutral."

That's not an explanation of how it works. That's just a tired excuse. For instance "if they're mostly the same size, you're neutral." But how close is "mostly the same size"? 55/45? 60/40? If someone is 70% lawful and 30& chaotic, what does that make them? What if they're 40% chaotic, 25% neutral and 35% chaotic? And how do you, personally, measure how lawful or chaotic something is? If something seems random to everyone or nearly everyone, but actually follows a huge, elaborate plan, is that lawful or chaotic? Is Chaos, of the type involving butterflies and hurricanes, actually chaos or law?

And how is labeling a creature "neutral evil" going to tell you how it reacts in any particular situation? And do all neutral evil creatures react in the same way to that situation? If not, then how is that label useful, or more useful than actually giving it a few sentences of motivation?

 

[Faolyn]

Or it could be just that. Barring racialization, you have nothing to bark about.

Declaring an entire mortal race to be evil is racialization.