D&D General The Problem with Evil or what if we don't use alignments?

[FrozenNorth]

I was trying to do a quick scan of things in some PF bestiaries to think about porting over... And there were a lot of things I didn't know in the last four!

I’ll concede that PF has a lot of non-union equivalents of angels (in the case of azata, literally). But if you are homebrewing in obscure creatures from a different system, I’m not sure that mixing in a monster that is “good” in PF is really a problem.

Especially since even proponents of alignment agree that individuals of creatures can vary from the printed alignment.

 

[FrozenNorth]

If they really do get rid of alignment completely (which I'm still skeptical of), they'd have to ditch the Great Wheel cosmology and the lore concerning what happens to creatures' souls after death. A large section of the DMG would effectively need to be rewritten, too.

I’m pretty sure you can sever the Planes from consideration of alignment. Just because Pelor is no longer Lawful Good doesn’t mean his beliefs have changed. And the realm where he lives will still reflect him and attract the souls of his faithful.

That being said, I would be totally OK with each god having their own plane that they redesign according to their whim and that collects the souls of the faithful, without limiting that to 9 planes organized by alignment.

 

[Oofta]

I am assuming that WOTC did some kind of polling for alignment before they started the deemphasis of it. Even if it is private and internal.

I have to believe poll happy WOTC is still poll happy

Yes, the super-secret poll that nobody leaked? Right. More likely it came to the attention of some corporate type in HASBRO that there was a "controversy" about alignment shortly after there was a big hullaballoo about diversity because of a posting by an ex employee*. They didn't want another "scandal" hurting the brand as they were setting up plans to expand beyond the TTRPG.

You can make assumptions all you want, but corporations hand down decisions from on high with little logic or reason all the time.

*I have no idea if the ex employee had a legitimate complaint or not; all we got was one side of the story.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I mean, pop culture has a really famous example of a good-ish ogre. Just wants to be left alone in his swamp, and all.

Both Candlekeep Mysteries and Storm Giant’s Thunder feature good ogres. In both cases, their change was precipated by an encounter with a headband of intellect.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Really we just won't know until WotC tells us. Van Richten's Guide didn't feature alignment at all, but Jeremy Crawford's tweets from June of last year indicated that they were working on alignment and that the rules as written were insufficient. That would imply they're working on alignment and choosing not to focus on it until that work is done rather than throwing it out.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Both Candlekeep Mysteries and Storm Giant’s Thunder feature good ogres. In both cases, their change was precipated by an encounter with a headband of intellect.

Baldur's Gate 3 also has an ogre with a headband of intellect, interestingly enough. Though he's not so much "good" as more willing to strike a deal and keep his two normal ogre companions from trying to kill and eat the party.

EDIT: Having just looked at the entry for the Chaotic Good ogre in Candlekeep Mysteries, Little One, he apparently became good because ogres by default aren't intelligent enough to bother contemplating if killing is bad.

Alignment is present in Candlekeep Mysteries, though missing from several statblocks and sometimes only mentioned in descriptive text for a character. Van Richten's seems to be the only publication where alignment is completely absent.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I don't know if this is addressed at all in the other thread, but what I wanted to ask is would the game be better if alignment wasn't present?

A few months ago I ran a game where the Dawnfather Church was usurped by members of the Strife Emperor Cult.
This had been ongoing for years and past unnoticed due to the influence of the gods was stymied by an event centuries past leaving them needing their followers worship more than its commonly known.

Anyway have you ever run games where the PCs eventually discover the various churches aren't exactly the alignment their god is supposed to be?

If this ever came up in your games how did you or your players react to such a reveal?

Prior to the game I mentioned above I was asked to convert a Ranger into a Cleric for a game, then had my dm mess up my character's back story when he couldn't recognise the potential of the game being run at a hamlet over a large city where heroes or mercenary troubleshooter's are more likely present.

Anyway I got a little into the character that I developed a faith for her, but I'm getting off topic how do you handle alignments in your game?

I haven't used alignment beyond "session zero, no outright evil PCs" in years.

The best replacement for alignment, IMO, is the Mass Effect Paragon vs Renegade construct, and I'd like to point out the first game mishandled that. (Renegade was basically "act stupid".)

I saw a superior alignment system in Palladium. That game had terrible mechanics but they had eight alignments that map onto eight of D&D's nine alignments. If I really wanted alignment-based rules, that would do it for me.

Churches having different alignments from their deities makes sense as churches are really about people. In many polythestic religions there is either no head church or it has very little influence, so each local church can "evolve" in very different ways. Of course, this might only make sense if the deity is "true neutral" in a D&D context.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

I haven't used alignment beyond "session zero, no outright evil PCs" in years.

The best replacement for alignment, IMO, is the Mass Effect Paragon vs Renegade construct, and I'd like to point out the first game mishandled that. (Renegade was basically "act stupid".)

I saw a superior alignment system in Palladium. That game had terrible mechanics but they had eight alignments that map onto eight of D&D's nine alignments. If I really wanted alignment-based rules, that would do it for me.

Churches having different alignments from their deities makes sense as churches are really about people. In many polythestic religions there is either no head church or it has very little influence, so each local church can "evolve" in very different ways. Of course, this might only make sense if the deity is "true neutral" in a D&D context.

Several Dragon Magazine articles during 4E featured heretical sects for the default setting's gods, as well as options for atypical followers. All the non-Chaotic Evil gods were said to have some role in maintaining creation. For example, while Torog was the Evil god of imprisonment, torture, and slavery, his power also had a hand in keeping imprisoned entities of destruction like the primordials from escaping. Therefore, one could hypothetically play a Neutral follower of Torog who used his deity's power to keep apocalyptic threats sealed away (though other followers of Torog might attack him as a heretic).

Another important aspect is that in 4E gods didn't take away powers but rather sent other agents to punish transgressions. I also recall an adventure where a paladin of a Lawful Good god became evil and was essentially adopted by another god (I think the transition was from Bahamut to Bane, if I remember correctly).

I personally use all these ideas in my 5E campaigns. In my current Underdark campaign every divinely-powered NPC has been some flavor of heretic (for example, a priestess of the Raven Queen who believes divine healing and resurrection defy her goddess and a heretical cult of Torog that views him as a being more like Ilmater from the Forgotten Realms).

 

[Maxperson]

I am assuming that WOTC did some kind of polling for alignment before they started the deemphasis of it. Even if it is private and internal.

I have to believe poll happy WOTC is still poll happy

A private internal poll is useless.

Mike Mearls: Hey Jeremy, you think alignment is a problem?
Jeremy Crawford: Maybe, what do you think?

If they aren't polling the public, it's not going to be of any functional use.

 

[Yaarel]

Did any of the playtesting for 5e mention alignment?

A number of the surveys tried to discern the essence of D&D gaming.