D&D (2024) The Problem with Healing Powercreep

[Micah Sweet]

This definitely feels like another edition war post.

Comparing the rules between editions is such a terrible way of doing things. This is a different system with different calibrations. And we all felt like those healing spells were subpar for the common ways it is played.

Now if you want to run a survival game, sure, I get it. Sadly D&D 2024 is not the best system for every play style.

Then maybe they should call it by a different name, if you're going to make it a different game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Let's discuss an often brought up point. Classes that don't really rely on resources (in the old days, this was the Fighter, now it's really more the Rogue) can do their thing all day, while other classes have to ration out resources.

The idea being, well, at some point, some classes will run low on resources, allowing the "resourceless" classes to really shine.

But that's never been the reality of D&D in my experience, because even "resourceless" classes do have a basic, elementary, resource.

Hit points.

When there is no longer any source of magical healing or limited-use resources that can hasten combats in various ways to mitigate damage, the adventuring stops. I've never heard a Fighter say "hey, it's ok that you are all out of magic, we can keep going!". If encounter design is in any way based on everyone doing something that isn't "stay in the back and spam cantrips", then there's a problem- classes like the Rogue do not get stronger when everyone else gets weaker, thus, if the other characters get weaker, the party as a whole gets weaker, and that doesn't lead to "the Rogue now shines", it leads to "we're all limping along and barely surviving!".

That's why this kind of class balance simply doesn't work and never has. But when 4e tried to put all classes on the same resource track, a lot of people didn't care for it. Because in their mind, they felt that not having to rely on resources was a strength. "My character can go all day, ha ha ha!" but they really can't. They just don't have to make decisions on when and where to use resources, which makes it easier to play the game for them, but isn't a strength.

If it was, a party of two Fighters and two Rogues would be far superior than any other possible combination. And it really isn't. You shouldn't look at the game as "individual characters are using resources to succeed."

The reality is, "the party as a whole is using resources to succeed". The fact that a class might not have any resources to speak of and does the same thing turn after turn isn't, in reality, a great advantage. This isn't to say that such classes are useless or don't have a place, but what they are providing isn't superior to what everyone else provides in general play. There is no "the Rogue gets weaker if other players never run out of resources" paradigm. The Rogue remains exactly the same on encounter 6 as they were on encounter 1. The fact that they could theoretically be just as viable on encounter 11 (if they somehow haven't run dry on hit points, of course) doesn't matter- the party as a whole is weakened to the point that nobody could get to encounter 11!

Resource attrition as a concept applies to the whole group, not just individual characters, because the game is predicated on the idea you need multiple characters working together to survive.

The fact that there are several different resource management methods for different classes is really not a feature (at least, as far as I've ever noticed) because there's too many variables. Oh what if they only get one short rest? What if they get no short rests? What if the Wizard uses a fireball in encounter 3 instead of encounter 5?

I'm not saying it's impossible- some of you may have long since mastered this sort of thing. I wish I had!

But from my perspective, it's a pain in the backside. I'd much rather have everyone functioning at the same power level every encounter than wonder "is this the encounter that gets turned inside out by a powerful resource?". Or worse "is this the encounter that breaks the party because they don't have enough resources?".

4e works that way, as you've said. Is something like that more your preference?

 

[Sulicius]

Then maybe they should call it by a different name, if you're going to make it a different game.

What do you mean? Surely you understand what I am saying? No-one is expecting us to run all the editions in one D&D amalgam.

 

[Micah Sweet]

What do you mean? Surely you understand what I am saying? No-one is expecting us to run all the editions in one D&D amalgam.

What I'm saying is, if you're going to make a new edition that is so different from the previous ones that you can't viably play the same style of game, that new edition shouldn't go by the same name as the old one, because they are different games.

 

[James Gasik]

huh, your numbers used had me have to go check the rules and i guess i've never really read the text for SW, i've always thought it recovered much more of a chunk of health (i assumed 50%) as a long rest resource.

but regardless if the fighter has this they're not the only class who's main attrition resource is HP, let all the noncasters really be thick slabs of meat through their short rest recovery, even the more comparatively frailer rogue and monk.

I did make an error, that's what I get for posting before bed, lol. It's actually 6d10+6x Fighter LEVEL, not Con mod, derp.

 

[Nefermandias]

No not really.. you are assuming video game style bottomless wand vendors too. Eventually the group's hp growth needed to step up to things like some amount∆ of things like CMW wands or the gm just said "no the town only had N of them available". Similar soft caps eventually kicked in against Bob's excessive recklessness even if someone in the party was crafting them.

∆because CLW wands eventually stopped cutting it for in combat needs and simple matters of availability kicked in for our of combat needs

Crafting wands was a simple as having the feat and spending a few XP.

 

[Sulicius]

What I'm saying is, if you're going to make a new edition that is so different from the previous ones that you can't viably play the same style of game, that new edition shouldn't go by the same name as the old one, because they are different games.

Well, I am glad they moved to heroic fantasy, so that is not an issue to me.

 

[James Gasik]

4e works that way, as you've said. Is something like that more your preference?

I did really enjoy 4e, though it had things it simply did not do well (exploration for example). But I'm not forwarding it as the shining exemplar of this concept- it definitely could be improved upon in a lot of ways.

The problem is, it becomes a new paradigm that people will reject because it's not what they are used to. History proved that. So you have to ease people into it. 5e actually does this, but not in a complete way. Fighters have resources (Second Wind, Action Surge) and some subclasses expand on this (the Battlemaster being the standout as a class that has limited use "special attacks").

And the Warlock's Pact Magic has what could be, "encounter magic", all that's required is a shorter short rest. You can see hints of this sort of thing in other spellcasting classes, like Arcane Recovery. The day may come when all of this is seen as so normal that you could put all classes on an encounter paradigm or close to it so we don't need to worry about needing X encounters per game day as a balancing point.

Of course, what's needed then is an absolute limit somewhere so that people who need that sort of thing in their games to simulate that feeling of characters being worn down have it. Hit points are of course the ultimate limit, but if you can heal forever that's only so useful- this is where healing surges once worked, but there are certainly other ways this could be done as well.

But this sort of evolution has to be a slow process, since there's always going to be people who want casters to have limited, but potent resources (even if the use of those resources tends to cause ample consternation, so that some champion that there must be a way to discourage or prevent their use) and non-casters to not be resource reliant. Mostly because nostalgia is a powerful force and those people feel that D&D must be this way, because it was that way for a very long time. I'm trying to choose my words carefully here- I don't mean to insult people who prefer this style of play. I cut my teeth on the same long ago and I still occasionally play AD&D (of the dreaded "Second Edition" variety).

D&D's current problem is really that it's trying to serve multiple masters, leading to a sort of cursed design where it's not fully supporting the play the PHB describes, nor fully supporting the play many fans of the game prefer- even though WotC clearly wants all groups to buy the shiny new product to keep the lights on!

Or, to quote an old song:

"I support the left, but you know I'm leaning leaning to the right!"

 

[James Gasik]

Crafting wands was a simple as having the feat and spending a few XP.

And given how d20 xp worked, even if you fell behind, you'd earn more xp to catch up, and wealth spent on consumables was intended to replenish itself, meaning it wasn't really a big deal over time.

And eventually you upgraded to Wands of Lesser Vigor and Healing Belts anyways.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, I am glad they moved to heroic fantasy, so that is not an issue to me.

People who like the new way often say that. It still doesn't make sense in any non-financial way.