The Problem with Star Wars

[barsoomcore]

There is a perfectly valid way to make an objective judgement of quality.

Well, what you describe (accepting your sister's word on a movie) isn't remotely objective. It's just listening to and accepting somebody else's subjective opinion.

How is that objective?

Your statement that Singing in the Rain is a "perfect" movie, has no bearing on my opinion whatsoever.

Sorry, that whole line of discussion was meant as a sort of joke. OF COURSE my opinions on what a perfect movie is will have no bearing on your opinion. Why should it? That all got taken far more seriously than I meant it to be taken.

As for defending Lucas movies... I haven't seen any cogent arguments on the other side. All I've seen are "the acting sucked, the writing sucked, Lucas is the weakest link, the movie he stayed the furthest away from was the best, he's an incompetent director".

Some of these statements were made by you, some by others. Still, they seem like emotional smackdowns, not arguments.

Come on. How is "He sucks" an emotional smackdown?



I'll assume you were posting at the same time as me, and so didn't see my comment above about sound-off viewing. I honestly feel that's a pretty good way of assessing a film. But we can have more.

As for why *I* like the movies, here is what I liked:

NOW we're talking!

Qui-Gon. I thought he was a great character. A bit of a rogue. A smart mouth. Didn't give a damn for the rules, followed his heart.

No question. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were the highlight of this film. Two great actors dedicated to providing a real emotional core to the story, to sharing a powerful relationship. Absolutely.

Annakin's mother. The scene where Annakin is leaving her to a life of slavery, in order to follow his dream of being a Jedi was gut-wrenching to me, and I thought the woman who played that character gave a fantastic performance.

See, I WANTED to say she gave a fantastic performance, but I'm not convinced she did. Reviewing it, I've come to the conclusion that I don't know how she feels about her son's disappearance with a total stranger. I'm not saying that she needs to present just one feeling or another, but if she's conflicted, then THAT'S what should be communicated. I don't know how she feels, ultimately.

Anymore than I know why she lets this total frickin' stranger walk off with her only son. I've always assumed that Qui-Gon jedi-mind-tricked her into accepting it. Which opens a whole other can of worms that I think I made up because I wanted the story to be more interesting than it was -- that Qui-Gon is actually a bit of a bad guy, that he flat-out kidnapped Anakin from his mother and thereby set in motion the entire collapse of the Republic, his own death and the death of his apprentice (not to mention pretty much the entire Jedi Council).

I'm not sure the story is ACTUALLY that sophisticated, though. Especially after AotC. I WANT it to be and for a while I convinced myself that it was, but I don't think there's lots of evidence towards that end.

Which is another cause for disappointment, because the whole idea of good guys and bad guys being intermingled is kind of interesting. If not very in keeping with the rest of the Star Wars style.

Darth Maul.

Say no more. Ray Parks is a gifted martial artist (though a pretty bad actor if he's asked to do anything other than glower, which fortunately, he wasn't here) and the makeup job here was huge.

Great heavy.

Obi-wan. I always loved this character as played by Alec Guiness, and seeing that the crazy old man used to be a young, insecure, ambitious man who towed the Jedi Council's party line resonated with me. I see a lot of his future disdain for authority in the fact that the "party line" led him and everyone like him to ruin.

The best part about both the two prequels has been watching Ewan Macgregor try to single-handedly lift the material above itself. He's been trying SO HARD. And I like him so much. And his Alec Guinness impression is very very good.

Definitely a high point of the films. Although he seemed to fall flat in the second somewhat. Still leagues above his co-stars, for the most part. Though I think Natalie Portman is TRYING, I just think she's getting crushed under the direction and dialogue. Because she's immensely talented, there's no question. And she has moments of brilliance (the bit where, as queen, she tells Anakin that Padme's not available, is one of my favourite moments), but time and again she's given these horrible mouthfuls to try and spit out. Not even Harrison Ford was always able to negotiate Lucas' dialogue, so I don't hold it against her.

Terrance "KNEEL BEFORE ZOD" Stamp. I always love Terrance Stamp. The man is a sci-fi legend and always seems to bring his gravitas with him.

Big Terrance Stamp fan, but he's done very little for me here. Mainly because he's had almost nothing to do. Not like Peter Cushing in Star Wars. He seems wasted here.

The sword fight.

Maybe the best sword fight ever directed by a white guy. I own the TPM DVD solely because of that sword fight. I MIGHT go see RotS just to see if they manage to top it.

Christopher Lee. Slimy. His best charm-oozing Dracula sort of menace on display here.

Meh. What's the performance? He's trying, but he's got nothing to work with and nowhere to go. You go "Ooh, Christopher Lee," and then chuckle at his beautiful voice and you're done.

Compared to Saruman, Lee is phoning this baby in. I mean he's great, no question, he's always great. But I want to see him DO something. And I don't.

Yoda fights!

This gets sillier every time I see it. What a painful moment.

I like the idea, sort of, but it was... I don't know. Silly. And tedious. My main interest was in how they'd gotten Christopher Lee to move around like that, and if they'd replaced him with a digital double.

Watching it again on DVD, I noticed the many subtle homages in his mannerisms and expressions to Yojimbo. A nice, brilliant, directorial touch. Yoda as Toshiro Mifune? Daddy likes.

Yoda was easily the best performance in the whole movie. The movie was better every time he was on screen. His expressions, his reactions -- the Yoda animation team did a spectacular job. Big kudos there.

Annakin vs. the Sandpeople.

This was just overblown melodrama for me. Lucas really milks this, and unfortunately, neither Pernilla August nor Christian Hayden sold me on any of it. The audience I saw it with was chuckling in this sequence, which I'm pretty sure wasn't what was intended.

The arena scene.

The fights with the monsters felt like "The Rancor, but with less tension and let's do it a couple of times, why don't we?" It's a general problem throughout these two films -- a lack of tension.

In the first film, you're on the edge of your seat throughout because you never know what's coming -- you aren't 100% sure that our heroes (or at least that all of them) are going to triumph. They split up in the Death Star, so you worry if maybe Han and Chewie are going to get caught, or maybe Luke and Leia. Especially when Ben dies half-way through the movie. And Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru's charred corpses certainly make it very clear that the stakes are high and danger is all around.

In the prequels, that feeling isn't there. The pod race -- there's simple no possiblity that Anakin is going to lose this race. You know that before it even begins. And yep, sure enough, he wins the race. The characters are forever being put in "jeopardy" that you can clearly predict the outcome of.

This is why the final swordfight in TPM works so great -- because you can imagine that they WON'T win this one. The story has been set up so that this might turn out any particular way.

Compare that with the Gungan battle or the space battle, both taking place at the same time. You KNOW the Gungan's aren't about to be slaughtered in front of our eyes, and you KNOW Anakin's not going to get blown away, so there's very little tension. Hence, very little excitement.

The same problem with the monster battle in AotC. You KNOW Anakin, Obi-Wan and Amidala aren't going to die here. You know that. So there's no tension, and the whole scene reduces to a "That was kinda cool" observation. Which is fair enough, but it's a long ways away from a thrilling moment in cinema.

Now I'm sure folks will now chime in and tell me how I'm wrong about all these, how the movies I liked did, in fact suck.

Well, they did.

But no, I don't think you're wrong. How could you be wrong about what you like? I do disagree with you, but that doesn't make you (or me) wrong. This isn't a contest, it's a conversation.

 

[barsoomcore]

Of course, Apocalypse Now wouldn't really work without the sound. It just wouldn't be the same perfect movie without some of those great lines. Marry Poppins is all about talk, really.

I think both films would remain truly entertaining experiences without sound. The visuals alone tell a story.

I think its an interestin idea, but not a way to say if a movie is great or not. Can you really name a movie that works PERFECTLY without the sound where you're still able to follow the plot well enough to know what's going on? I honestly don't even think A New Hope can pull that one off all that well.

Perhaps I was unclear. Of course movies involve BOTH sound and visual, and any movie is an incomplete experience if you don't get one or the other (not to mention both). I never meant to suggest otherwise.

But yes, in fact, you CAN follow the story of Star Wars with the sound off. Come on, it's easy: Little plucky ship overrun by big sinister ship led by BIG sinister guy in black who kills people. Beautiful princess sends funny-looking friend away and is subsequently captured by big sinister guy. Funny-looking friend hooks up with disaffected youth, leads him to old man who supplies magic sword and comfort at the death of parents. Old man leads youth into civilization, makes friends with devil-may-care rogue and they go to where the princess is being held (she's being tortured, by the way), rescue the princess while the old guy confronts and is defeated by big sinister guy, escape and return (rogue who previously bailed coming back at the right moment) to destroy big sinister guy's house.

Good guys acquire medals, enjoy applause, and the credits roll. It's a fun story.

A movie that WON'T work that way isn't necessarily a disaster, but it IS a bit of a warning sign that maybe the film is relying too much on exposition to move the story forward. And this is what we find in TPM -- without the great swathes of exposition, the film is incomprehensible. And that's a problem with the script that leads to the film sucking.

Disney movies are often very good at this. Watch all the touches in a film like Hercules that show you what's going on -- the little skulls bubbling up in Hades' poison, the camera moves up to Olympus, all that stuff helps to tell the story VISUALLY, which is part and parcel of making a good movie.

Watch Citizen Kane, for crying out loud. It's practically a silent film in its visual story-telling.

Lucas can do this very well in a sequence-specific manner. His set-pieces are often very well-crafted. But assembling those into a strong story has proven beyond him in these films. He has failed at this basic cinematic task.

 

[Vigilance]

Well, what you describe (accepting your sister's word on a movie) isn't remotely objective. It's just listening to and accepting somebody else's subjective opinion.

How is that objective?

No its not me accepting one person's opinion. Its me seeing that MANY people disagree with my opinion.

See what I'm talking about is an avoidance of the classic bad review syndrome, you know where reviewer starts off with the following "disclaimer": I hate dungeons, I have never seen a dungeon adventure that was any good. Oh and I hate the DIablo video game for the same reason. Now, let's review this dungeon adventure! And of course, it gets a "2" or lower. What. A. Shock.

Or when a rock critic says "I hate rock opera, and this Queen album is the worst piece of tripe ever put on vinyl".

Both are true stories, one from an ENW staff reviewer and the other from Rockline. In these situations, where you know you won't like a type of movie (like me with musicals), then I think the thing to do is turn to someone who can give an objective opinion.

But that's just me, I'm a Libra and tend to see all sides of everything

I'll assume you were posting at the same time as me, and so didn't see my comment above about sound-off viewing. I honestly feel that's a pretty good way of assessing a film. But we can have more.

See, I think that seeing movies with sound off supports the kind of movies I tend to like (the spectacles). However, I don't think it works for all good movies, not by any stretch. Full Metal Jacket (the basic training sequence) is one of my favorite sequences in any movie ever. Hilarious in a black-comedic way that hasn't been seen since MASH. But that sequences would make no sense without dialogue, and I think its brilliantly directed.

No question. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were the highlight of this film. Two great actors dedicated to providing a real emotional core to the story, to sharing a powerful relationship. Absolutely.

Exactly. And, their performance in the first movie informs us in the second movie. We have seen a Sensei-Student relationship that worked. So when we see Annakin and Obi-won, we immediately realize that this isn't how it's supposed to be.

And again, in Obi-wan's performance in Ep II I love his "proper" ways that I know he'll have ditched (in favor of Qui-gon's methods) by the time he teaches Luke.

I also love how he blames himself for the failure. In ESB, he says Annakin was his failure. Seeing the prequels, I love that I disagree with him. He was one wanting to off the kid (or at least handcuff him and try to slow the growth of the power curve) and Yoda and Mace were the ones pushing the kid ahead.

Anymore than I know why she lets this total frickin' stranger walk off with her only son.

Well, I think she saw the goodness in Qui-gon myself. Here was a guy who walked into her life and did nothing but care for her son. I saw in her that she had never met a man who did that.

Also, I don't think she *did* know she could trust him. But a chance at freedom with Qui-gon was more of a chance than he had with her. And Qui-gon was a Jedi. I think that gave him a certain added level of trust from her. It would be like being a Knight of the Round Table.

The best part about both the two prequels has been watching Ewan Macgregor try to single-handedly lift the material above itself. He's been trying SO HARD. And I like him so much. And his Alec Guinness impression is very very good.

Yeah, he's great and I was pretty sure no one could play Obi-wan.

Not even Harrison Ford was always able to negotiate Lucas' dialogue, so I don't hold it against her.

Right, Lucas' actors have always had to sink or swim largely on their own. And that is a weakness of his as a director. I still love his movies, but still, he leaves actors out on a big ledge.

Here's a story from American Grafitti.

Ron Howard meets Lucas, and is in awe, because he too wants to direct some day, and for those who seek or sit in the Big Chair (like Howard and Speilberg and Coppola) THX-1138 made Lucas a star for them immediately.

So Howard mentions to Lucas that he wants to direct and Lucas says, "Oh yeah that would be great for you Ron! Listen, take my advice, go into animation, then you don't have to deal with actors."

And Ron nodded and walked away thinking "He doesn't like actors?"

But yet the movie was really GOOD.

You can either hear this story and think Lucas is a technically gifted hack, or you can hear it and think he's letting the actors do their thing without being micromanaged. Some (like Mannikin Skywalker/Jake Lloyd) really need that, and some (like Harrison Ford and Ewan McGregor) shine.

Maybe the best sword fight ever directed by a white guy. I own the TPM DVD solely because of that sword fight. I MIGHT go see RotS just to see if they manage to top it.

See, for me, as a Kurosawa fan, this makes the movies good right there. I have no problem saying I watch the sequal to Yojimbo purely for the fight scene at the end. That's enough for a movie imo.

As a fan of the theater, if I want story and plot I'll hitch to NYC and catch Henry IV.

Yoda was easily the best performance in the whole movie. The movie was better every time he was on screen. His expressions, his reactions -- the Yoda animation team did a spectacular job. Big kudos there.

True, but also a brilliant directorial stroke. See, Lucas was conciously patterning the character after Yojimbo and there's even a scene in the Ep II DVD where he tells a CGI guy "watch Yojimbo again, that's how I want him to act".

One thing I love about watching Lucas' films is his little Kurosawa homages, which as a trememndous fan, I catch all the time and give me the warm and fuzzies.

This was just overblown melodrama for me.

Sure it was. So was Obi-wan dying in ANH. And Hayden's acting was much better than Hammill's.

The movies ARE melodrama. They are action/adventure with a little Japanese revenge tragedy tossed in for flavor. I don't rip the movies for what they are, because what they are rocks imo.

In the first film, you're on the edge of your seat throughout because you never know what's coming

You are?!?! Really?

So, when Luke "trusts his feelings" and turns off his targeting device, you thought he was going to miss?

Well I was 9 and I *knew* he was going to nail that puppy. From the first time he mentions hitting Wampum Rats (or whatever the hell he called them) it was set up loud and clear that he was the one who would make the shot. Sorry, not a lot of tension for me there, just good clean fun.

The same problem with the monster battle in AotC. You KNOW Anakin, Obi-Wan and Amidala aren't going to die here. You know that. So there's no tension, and the whole scene reduces to a "That was kinda cool" observation. Which is fair enough, but it's a long ways away from a thrilling moment in cinema.

And I knew Luke wasn't going to die fighting the Rancor too lol. Maybe you saw tension there, but I saw it as cool.

Die fighting Vader? That was a possibility. Die 30 minutes into the last film against some monster? Not bloody likely.

Again, you are slamming the prequals for things the originals did as well.

Chuck

 

[Desdichado]

The debate in this thread has occasionally steered pretty close to closure time, but it's got back on track again thankfully.

Please remember to not get personal; the posts like vigilance's one which lays out specific things that he does like are much more productive.

Huh?! I'm watching at least half a dozen threads in General that are more heated than this without any hint of closure time.

 

[mojo1701]

We're forgetting the main point of the Star Wars films, and that is that they tell a story that entertains the audience.

I'm not saying that Lucas is the best director or writer. But they weren't meant to be great movies like Citizen Kane or Fargo. Lucas didn't NEED to be a great director or writer. It would've been great if he would've been, but that's just icing on the cake. They were meant to be movies that charm us and transport us to a magical place and time. And if they've done that, then I say, "Mission Accomplished."

 

[Logan]

At the risk of being called a Lucas fanboy, I don't think there's really anything wrong with Star Wars per say. Was TPM a dispointment? Yeah, a little. Diddn't like Lil' Annie, diddn't like the pod race, HATED Jar-Jar. That's about it. Really liked Darth Maul, I thought he'd be back as a cyborg or something.(Or better yet, he was a twin, Darth Hammer, who want revenge! Err, sorry) I guess overall I enjoy the movies, all of them, too much to worry about the same things. If you don't like them, hey, that's fine. Thin Lucas is a hack? I'm cool with that, too.
As far as good movies vs movies I like, Citizen Kane is one the best movies ever made, but I'd rather watch Harold and Kumar go to White Castle again. Just my choice.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I had a great time watching the first two movies at the theater, and so did the crowd based on the reactions when I was there. Hell the place just went nuts when Yoda whipped out his saber and fought Dooku in the second one, I was picking my jaw off the floor. Other than Jar Jar most of the people I talked to have enjoyed the first movie as well.

You can't really make any judgments based on internet BB's of course.

Perfection? Of course not. Good enough to sweep me away to a time long, long ago, and to a galaxy far, far away? Without a doubt. Movie critics and film students be damned!

 

[barsoomcore]

No its not me accepting one person's opinion. Its me seeing that MANY people disagree with my opinion.

Okay, many people (you said you asked your sister, which counts as one in my book, but if it's actually many, that's fine).

Many people's subjective opinions don't magically turn into an objective opinion. They're just lots of subjective opinions. You can make objective statements about those opinions ("Lots of people love movie X"), but the opinions themselves remain subjective and capable of being wrong.

You claimed to have access to objective opinions about art. I find that a startling sort of claim and am trying to figure out what you meant by that.

In these situations, where you know you won't like a type of movie (like me with musicals), then I think the thing to do is turn to someone who can give an objective opinion.

And who's that?

Full Metal Jacket (the basic training sequence) is one of my favorite sequences in any movie ever. Hilarious in a black-comedic way that hasn't been seen since MASH. But that sequences would make no sense without dialogue, and I think its brilliantly directed.

What about it wouldn't make sense? I think it works great. I mean, I'm not the biggest Full Metal Jacket fan, but I don't see what would make that sequence meaningless.

Well, I think she saw the goodness in Qui-gon myself. Here was a guy who walked into her life and did nothing but care for her son.

In that, "I'm going to encourage your son to risk his life in a death-defying adventure," kind of way. I don't really disagree with you here, but you're putting a lot into the story that Lucas never did.

And Qui-gon was a Jedi. I think that gave him a certain added level of trust from her. It would be like being a Knight of the Round Table.

And she knew he was a Jedi how, exactly? Because he could do magic tricks?

Well, I don't know that I would let MY son go off with somebody who could do that. I find it easier to believe that Qui-Gon didn't give her a choice, even though I think I putting a lot into the story that Lucas never did, too.

See, for me, as a Kurosawa fan, this makes the movies good right there. I have no problem saying I watch the sequal to Yojimbo purely for the fight scene at the end.

Not for the fight scene at the beginning? Or the ones in the middle? Or for Mifune all the way through? And the guy they hide in the closet? And the old lady?

Come on, there's a MILLION reasons to watch Sanjuro. It's a great film, start to finish.

As a fan of the theater, if I want story and plot I'll hitch to NYC and catch Henry IV.

Don't really understand that.

One thing I love about watching Lucas' films is his little Kurosawa homages, which as a trememndous fan, I catch all the time and give me the warm and fuzzies.

See I just find it "stealing" more than "homage".

Somebody once said that the problem with Brian de Palma's movie Red Planet was that Hitchcock never made a movie about interplanetary travel. I think you could say that the problem with TPM is that Kurosawa never made a picture about trade disputes.

Sure it was. So was Obi-wan dying in ANH. And Hayden's acting was much better than Hammill's.

Okay, we can disagree on that.

The movies ARE melodrama. They are action/adventure with a little Japanese revenge tragedy tossed in for flavor. I don't rip the movies for what they are, because what they are rocks imo.

I'm not ripping them for what they are. That would be pointless. I'm ripping them for what they do poorly. And the moments around Anakin's mother's death is done poorly. It is TOO melodramatic. It is SO melodramatic that it's comical rather than tragic.

So, when Luke "trusts his feelings" and turns off his targeting device, you thought he was going to miss?

You have a habit of attacking arguments I never made. The final moments of Star Wars ARE tense, because you don't know HOW it's going to happen. That's a lesser form of tension, of course, and yeah, I think it's a problem in the film. It's supported, however, by the mythological strength of the moment, as well as the surprise of having Solo return to reaffirm our faith in people.

The ending of Star Wars is an affirmation of what has gone before.

And I knew Luke wasn't going to die fighting the Rancor too lol. Maybe you saw tension there, but I saw it as cool.

Actually, I agree with you. Not much tension, and over quickly enough that that wasn't a problem. It was a "look how cool and tough Luke's gotten while he was away" kind of moment, which sets us up for the final battle with Jabba at the Sarlac pit.

Again, you are slamming the prequals for things the originals did as well.

Well, you'll notice none of the originals are on my list of perfect films. So, yes, I am. If that's relevant, let me know how.

Or does this mean your defense of Lucas is "He's as crappy as he's always been"? I wouldn't argue too vociferously against that.

 

[two]

absolutely soulless and embaressing

HI all,

I'm not a Star Wars fan nor not a fan. I watched the original trilogy and liked them ok; if they were on late at night and I was drunk I would watch 20 min. here or there during college, just as I would watch Godzilla or any number of other "dumb but fun" movies. I wasn't and am not emotionally invested in the Star Wars franchise as such. I simply don't think about it. I hadn't thought about the movies for about 2 years -- until I came across this thread.

I watched The Phantom Menance on DVD from NetFlix at some point in the past. My reaction was swift. The movie felt incredibly empty. Entirely soulless. The computer FX had a feeling of "oh this again" after a few scenes. Everything seemed lit the same way; the entire world had a bland homogeneous feel to it. It was the definition of unfunny. I felt like my mouth was open and a dentist was telling me jokes, forcing me to smile (for I feared what he might do if I showed less than complete enthusiasm).

I didn't go into the movie wanting to like it or not wanting to like it. I sure hadn't read much about it, good or bad. I came out of the movie feeling more than a little embaressed. So much money spent on such an empty husk. Completely bereft of anything approaching "art", that much was overwhelmingly clear. So what, throw away art. Was it even fun? Did it make me laugh? Did I enjoy a battle scene? No, no, no.

It's very difficult to describe the empty feeling the movie generated. Perhaps the best analogy would be the effect of watching over-sized and artificially enhanced computer-generated figures performing sexual acts in an computer-generated environment. What they mean to do -- provoke some good old-fashioned sexual desire in the audience -- is incredibly far removed from the audience's actual reaction, which is: confusion, repulsion, and a lack of understanding why they didn't just use some attractive real-life humans in the first place). This gets somewhere close to my final impression.

Perhaps.

Let's just say this: until I wrote this post, I hadn't considered Star Wars in quite a while. After seeing TPM, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I plan never to spend another second of my life watching, thinking, or writing about anything related to the series.

Two out -- and I mean out.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

And she knew he was a Jedi how, exactly? Because he could do magic tricks?

He had a lightsaber. It is the symbol of the Jedi.

Well, I don't know that I would let MY son go off with somebody who could do that. I find it easier to believe that Qui-Gon didn't give her a choice, even though I think I putting a lot into the story that Lucas never did, too.

Oh, come on. Is you son a slave on a dustball in the middle of no where? Pretty much anything was better for Anakin than growing up a slave. It was a chance for him to be free, and his mother believed that he was meant to help the Jedi, anyway. Sure, it didn't turn out all that well, but that's Anakin's fault, not his mother's.