D&D 5E The Scout Rogue - how did it work out?

[Paul Farquhar]

To me, that explains the steps between non-proficient to proficient and proficient to expertise, but not the jump from non-proficient to expertise.

5e does not have different skill levels. "Expertise" is not a skill level in 5e. It is the name of rogue ability that allows them to add double proficiency bonus to certain skills. They have it because they are a Rogue, not because they are better at a skill.

The other thing that happens frequently is the retcon. In Doctor Who: The Pyramids of Mars Sarah Jane Smith is suddenly an expert marksman, even though she had never shot anything at all in any earlier episodes. Who is to say that a character hasn't had that skill all along, but just has never used it before?

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

5e does not have different skill levels. "Expertise" is not a skill level in 5e. It is the name of rogue ability that allows them to add double proficiency bonus to certain skills.

OK. I can ask the question a different way. We have three level ability: 1) No proficiency bonus, 2) proficient bonus, 3) double proficiency bonus. How does one jump from 1 to 3 without first passing over 2?

Now, we can say that a character can skip from 1 to 3 because all three are made-up abstractions. However, at least in my game, those made up abstractions represent something tangible (competence/training). Abstraction is fine - necessary, even. But dissociating the abstraction from what it represents feels like a step in the wrong direction.

They have it because they are a Rogue, not because they are better at a skill.

Wait, what? Do we call a person a program computers because he is a computer programmer or does calling someone a computer programmer allow him to program computers? Personally, I think the former is the better explanation.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

OK. I can ask the question a different way. We have three level ability: 1) No proficiency bonus, 2) proficient bonus, 3) double proficiency bonus. How does one jump from 1 to 3 without first passing over 2?

No, look at it this way. A level 3 scout gets +4 to their survival rolls.

A multiclassed character who gains Expertise at level 13 suddenly has a +5 to skill rolls - a bigger jump. The same applies to any character who learns a new skill at level 13+ - their ability increases by a larger amount than the scout at level 3.

Wait, what? Do we call a person a program computers because he is a computer programmer or does calling someone a computer programmer allow him to program computers? Personally, I think the former is the better explanation.

Neither is true. I can program computers but am not a computer programmer. I know computer programmers who are not very good at programming. The thing that makes them a computer programmer is what it says on their job description.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

No, look at it this way. A level 3 scout gets +4 to their survival rolls.

A multiclassed character who gains Expertise at level 13 suddenly has a +5 to skill rolls - a bigger jump. The same applies to any character who learns a new skill at level 13+ - their ability increases by a larger amount than the scout at level 3.

I think that's a valid perspective. Nicely explained.

Neither is true. I can program computers but am not a computer programmer. I know computer programmers who are not very good at programming. The thing that makes them a computer programmer is what it says on their job description.

I would say you are a computer programmer then, regardless of your job title. Likewise, I might (somewhat arbitrarily) decide the second man/woman is not a computer programmer, despite what others call him. One's position in society might be computer programmer, but I don't regard someone's position in society as who that person is, so much as what he/she is called.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

This is probably an issue for newer players.

backgrounds can foreshadow.

roleplay can be fine too. How much will +4 to rolls for a skill be noticed over level 1 and 2? i think it’s less jarring if people foreshadow with background, brief character history or feat for variant human.

If you roleplay a city rat rogue and suddenly decide to do things outside...I guess yeah. I would direct people to look ahead a bit and telegraph their choice or make it an option.

heck, even an urchin in a remote logging or fishing town would pick up some outdoor experience.

if you have little history written the character could talk about their experience and do a little retcon. I don’t think it need be a big jarring thing.

finally, if it’s a newb learning the game handwaving some oversights is par for the course. Emergent play is cool and it’s not always going to be that tight.

expectations about backstory and future choices should be sufficient for experienced players. They can foreshadow, really new people are just learning the dice. Imperfection is a given.

 

[Ancalagon]

One of my current PCs is a Rogue (Scout) and I think it works very well. It is actually my favorite rogue subclass.

Thank you for the input. Are you in a wilderness heavy adventure? If not, does it impact a lot?

 

[Ancalagon]

Fair enough, but I would be more inclined to make certain background makes sense with class before subclass. Anyway, there are many backgrounds which would make sense for the scout subclass that don't have either Nature or Survival (or maybe just Survival);.

Sailor makes a lot of sense - but not as in an "ocean" saloir, but as a "river man" - someone familiar with canoes, shallow trading vessels on rivers, etc. Marsh people too. In Yoon Suin, the Lamarakhi. Maybe a coastal fisherman, or a smuggler.

 

[FrozenNorth]

If a player wants to become a scout, I would expect that player to take a related background. Suddenly jumping from "has never set foot in a forest" to "wilderness expert" doesn't float my boat.

I agree with you. And because I’m lazy, when a Scout takes Survivalist, if they already have Nature or Survival (and I would expect most have at least one), they get Expertise in Nature and Survivalist, and Proficiency in 1 or 2 other skils.

 

[Charlaquin]

As a DM, I try to be as clear as possible in my descriptions. I don't try to trick or fool my players. If there are arrow slits in the wall, I'll include the holes when I describe the corridor. Sometimes they're arrow slits. Other times, a pressure plate on a tiled floor will release poison gas through them - or they might release water to flood the hallway. The holes might be an entrance to the den of a poisonous snake. That den might contain treasure. The holes aren't interesting unless the players can interact with them - so its easier just to tell the players they exist. Then the players can discuss among themselves what the holes mean.

The only time I use Perception is for surprise, which isn't often.

* * *

If a player wants to become a scout, I would expect that player to take a related background. Suddenly jumping from "has never set foot in a forest" to "wilderness expert" doesn't float my boat.

That’s really interesting! I do the same with my descriptions of the environment, but I still found myself calling for Perception checks quite often, when I still called for skill checks. These days I call for Wisdom checks, but I still do that pretty frequently.

 

[bedir than]

I'm confused as to why background needs to be an indicator of intent towards a subclass. Can a farmhand not become a Evoker Wizard because they weren't studious growing up? No sages become Champions?