D&D (2024) The state of Multiclass-Dips in One D&D

[Greg Benage]

The only one that concerns me is no-concentration hunter's mark. Healing with an action cost doesn't have a lot of value. I don't anticipate high-level PCs using an action to heal 27 hp during a Tier 4 combat.

 

[tetrasodium]

Nope. The downside is not theoretical.
The downside just does not show if people just build a character for a certain level.
So if you know what level and know that you can rebuild anytime, that is the problem. And even with your rules, there are levels, where the multiclass build is straight better and levels where it is worse. A +1 difference in PB does not make or break a character.

Also: please explain how it works exactly. I don't really get it.

"it"?

Stop thinking of this as an early game problem. The classes are front loaded by design. Any straight class is going to get smaller & smaller gains by comparison as the game progresses. When a dip gives an ability that scales by character rather than class level that dip is going to provide greater & greater benefits to a PC the longer the game goes on.

The easiest & most obvious example is a tier3 sorcerer & a 1-2 level warlock dip to gain more benefit than almost any 1-2 tier3 sorcerer levels would give because it does not require any preplanning to make maximum use of like hexadin. That is the case because it involves an ability that scales by character level like the new channel divinity rather than class level and because there are no penalties beyond the eventually minimal opportunity cost.

As to the example dual class rules I linked... it works like

Spoiler: this

• You can dual class at any time & that gives you two parallel exp tracks along with two classes side by side. Lets say classA is level 9 & classB is level5 for simplicity. There are some further limitations that determine how the classes combine & the additional costs you will have for the rest of the game.
• take the hit points from each class given your con score & divide them by two then add the results together.
  • This one should be easy... If a level 5 ClassA would have 35hp & a level 9 classB would have 22hp you would have 28.5 rounded down to 28hp.
• Take the delta between classA's proficiency bonus & classB's proficiency bonus (4-3=1) & subtract it from the higher of the two (4-1=3)
  • This encourages the dual classed player to go whole hog rather than just dip the juicy levels & focus on the primary class or it creates a cost as the spread grows. It also means that someone who doesn't do this can be happy about not having to take that hit.
• Experience needed for each side is multiplied by 2.5 (or 3) depending on what feel the gm is going for. This could be any number but those ones work well.
  • SYSTEM MATH HIGHLIGHTING:By default the exp table roughly doubles each level. In order to get from level N to level N+1 a PC needs roughly the same amount of experience it took them to go from level 1 to level N before they will have enough to progress from level N to N+1
    • That interacts with the 2.5x or 3x multiplier by making it harder & harder to stay even with a single classed PC at the benefit of having lots of low & maybe even mid level stuff from the classA in addition to the ones they have from classB. Because of how the exp chat roughly doubles each level this works out to a few levels that are going to vary depending on the split & seeing that is why the spreadsheet exists
• Spell slots & spell prep are tracked separate in 3.5 style. They don't stack 5e style
  • Given the prior steps the multiclassed character is probably going to be a few levels levels behind on the high side and almost certainly have reduced proficiency bonus for whatever level their high class is unless they are keeping both at the same level or very close. Keeping both at the same level is difficult in ways that will cause both to fall behind due to the 2.5-3x multiplier applied to the exp needs when the base need already roughly doubles every level before that multiplier
• That classA9/classB5 with a +3 proficiency bonus would have sunk 136,250 experience which is almost enough to be level 14 but the hit points from all levels of both classA & classB are halved so those are probably going to be behind a bit
  • I pulled the earlier hp numbers from thin air but you can see how that works with Alice's hypothetical 12con barbarian9(77/2)/fighter5(35/2) (Alice has 65hp) & Bob's hypothetical 12 con sorcerer 9(47/2)/warlock 5(33/2)(Bob has 40hp).
    • A single classed barbarian/fighter/sorcerer/warlock with 12 con & 136,250 experience would have the following HP values respectively barb 101hp/fighter 88hp/sorcerer 62hp/75hp assuming I didn't math something wrong with the hit dice. If Alice & bob are concerned about their low HP bumping classB for a bit is by far their best choice because 9/7 & 9/8 are 177,500 & 205,000xp but 10/5 is 176,250 & 11/5 is 228,750. For comparison a straight single class pc with 136,250 exp is level 12 while 177,500 & 205,000 are 15 & 16.
      • That works out to results that both choices are viscerally different with a clear niche each way with neither feeling like the other occupies the entire venn diagram of their niche.

The math is simple but comparing different hypothetical builds crosses far enough beyond 7+/-2 that the spreadsheet keeps visualization easy if you aren't trying to use it on a phone

 

[rules.mechanic]

Would a simple balance be a permanent -1 to proficiency bonus when you multi-class into a new class (or subclass)?

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

The more I see @tetrasodium points, and they are good, the more I see the design to frontload might be derived from the idea that people won't be playing to Tier 3 or Tier 4, and thus the rules are mostly designed for low-to-mid level play.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

"it"?

Stop thinking of this as an early game problem. The classes are front loaded by design. Any straight class is going to get smaller & smaller gains by comparison as the game progresses. When a dip gives an ability that scales by character rather than class level that dip is going to provide greater & greater benefits to a PC the longer the game goes on.

The easiest & most obvious example is a tier3 sorcerer & a 1-2 level warlock dip to gain more benefit than almost any 1-2 tier3 sorcerer levels would give because it does not require any preplanning to make maximum use of like hexadin. That is the case because it involves an ability that scales by character level like the new channel divinity rather than class level and because there are no penalties beyond the eventually minimal opportunity cost.

As to the example dual class rules I linked... it works like

Spoiler: this

• You can dual class at any time & that gives you two parallel exp tracks along with two classes side by side. Lets say classA is level 9 & classB is level5 for simplicity. There are some further limitations that determine how the classes combine & the additional costs you will have for the rest of the game.
• take the hit points from each class given your con score & divide them by two then add the results together.
  • This one should be easy... If a level 5 ClassA would have 35hp & a level 9 classB would have 22hp you would have 28.5 rounded down to 28hp.
• Take the delta between classA's proficiency bonus & classB's proficiency bonus (4-3=1) & subtract it from the higher of the two (4-1=3)
  • This encourages the dual classed player to go whole hog rather than just dip the juicy levels & focus on the primary class or it creates a cost as the spread grows. It also means that someone who doesn't do this can be happy about not having to take that hit.
• Experience needed for each side is multiplied by 2.5 (or 3) depending on what feel the gm is going for. This could be any number but those ones work well.
  • SYSTEM MATH HIGHLIGHTING:By default the exp table roughly doubles each level. In order to get from level N to level N+1 a PC needs roughly the same amount of experience it took them to go from level 1 to level N before they will have enough to progress from level N to N+1
    • That interacts with the 2.5x or 3x multiplier by making it harder & harder to stay even with a single classed PC at the benefit of having lots of low & maybe even mid level stuff from the classA in addition to the ones they have from classB. Because of how the exp chat roughly doubles each level this works out to a few levels that are going to vary depending on the split & seeing that is why the spreadsheet exists
• Spell slots & spell prep are tracked separate in 3.5 style. They don't stack 5e style
  • Given the prior steps the multiclassed character is probably going to be a few levels levels behind on the high side and almost certainly have reduced proficiency bonus for whatever level their high class is unless they are keeping both at the same level or very close. Keeping both at the same level is difficult in ways that will cause both to fall behind due to the 2.5-3x multiplier applied to the exp needs when the base need already roughly doubles every level before that multiplier
• That classA9/classB5 with a +3 proficiency bonus would have sunk 136,250 experience which is almost enough to be level 14 but the hit points from all levels of both classA & classB are halved so those are probably going to be behind a bit
  • I pulled the earlier hp numbers from thin air but you can see how that works with Alice's hypothetical 12con barbarian9(77/2)/fighter5(35/2) (Alice has 65hp) & Bob's hypothetical 12 con sorcerer 9(47/2)/warlock 5(33/2)(Bob has 40hp).
    • A single classed barbarian/fighter/sorcerer/warlock with 12 con & 136,250 experience would have the following HP values respectively barb 101hp/fighter 88hp/sorcerer 62hp/75hp assuming I didn't math something wrong with the hit dice. If Alice & bob are concerned about their low HP bumping classB for a bit is by far their best choice because 9/7 & 9/8 are 177,500 & 205,000xp but 10/5 is 176,250 & 11/5 is 228,750. For comparison a straight single class pc with 136,250 exp is level 12 while 177,500 & 205,000 are 15 & 16.
      • That works out to results that both choices are viscerally different with a clear niche each way with neither feeling like the other occupies the entire venn diagram of their niche.

The math is simple but comparing different hypothetical builds crosses far enough beyond 7+/-2 that the spreadsheet keeps visualization easy if you aren't trying to use it on a phone

Ok. The phone was the problem.

So if I understand it right, a level 9/5 class in your example is about a level 13 single classed PC and you penalize the proficiency bonus by 2 and hp by about 1/3 to 1/2.

If it is a blow to spellcasting... I don't necessarily think so. The warlock does not really stack with normal slots anyway.
So having 5 levels of warlock might be actually nice, as might be one more feat at certain levels

So yes, it seems to discurage dipping. I don't know if it is better balanced though. I am not really convinced. It seems very strange at low levels, and when you make that jump to the second class. But maybe I am still not fully grasping it.

So overall, I guess it is too much hassle for little gain. I bet there are easier ways to do it. But cool that you created something and put some thoughts into it.

Edit: probably lowering the multiplyer down to 2 would result in more balanced results and make it easier to calculate.

The end result will be a character level 10/13 with about as much xp as a level 20 character and a 2 lower proficiency bonus and about 1/3 less hp. Maybe actually the extra prof bonus reduction is not needed on top of xp increase and just reducing the hit dice by 1/2 instead of all hp would be sufficient to keep those characters in line. Also you could allow for limited stacking of spellcasting. I guess that also gives better results than having two seperate spellcasting tables. I think having twice as many low level spell slots instead of few high ones you can't use to prepare spells is actually a power upgrade instead of a downgrade...

So then we are back to: why all the hassle?
Instead: just add to multiclass rules, that class abilities based on PB use the PB listed in the class list. We have a precendent for such a rule in the spell preparation multiclass rules.

 

[Stalker0]

The simplest solution is to change multiclassing. Require X levels in a class before you can dip into another, once you dip you have to commit to to Y levels, etc.

 

[rules.mechanic]

The simplest solution is to change multiclassing. Require X levels in a class before you can dip into another, once you dip you have to commit to to Y levels, etc.

3 feels like the magic number. 3 levels in a class if you want to keep them when you gain levels in another class...

 

[tetrasodium]

Ok. The phone was the problem.

So if I understand it right, a level 9/5 class in your example is about a level 13 single classed PC and you penalize the proficiency bonus by 2 and hp by about 1/3 to 1/2.

If it is a blow to spellcasting... I don't necessarily think so. The warlock does not really stack with normal slots anyway.
So having 5 levels of warlock might be actually nice, as might be one more feat at certain levels

So yes, it seems to discurage dipping. I don't know if it is better balanced though. I am not really convinced. It seems very strange at low levels, and when you make that jump to the second class. But maybe I am still not fully grasping it.

So overall, I guess it is too much hassle for little gain. I bet there are easier ways to do it. But cool that you created something and put some thoughts into it.

Edit: probably lowering the multiplyer down to 2 would result in more balanced results and make it easier to calculate.

The end result will be a character level 10/13 with about as much xp as a level 20 character and a 2 lower proficiency bonus and about 1/3 less hp. Maybe actually the extra prof bonus reduction is not needed on top of xp increase and just reducing the hit dice by 1/2 instead of all hp would be sufficient to keep those characters in line. Also you could allow for limited stacking of spellcasting. I guess that also gives better results than having two seperate spellcasting tables. I think having twice as many low level spell slots instead of few high ones you can't use to prepare spells is actually a power upgrade instead of a downgrade...

So then we are back to: why all the hassle?
Instead: just add to multiclass rules, that class abilities based on PB use the PB listed in the class list. We have a precendent for such a rule in the spell preparation multiclass rules.

Spoiler: pretty much

The proficiency bonus for levels 5 9 & 13 is +3 +4 & +5 respectively. A single class level 13 would have +5 proficiency bonus while the level 9/5 has +4 & +3 where subtracting the delta makes it +3.

Would a simple balance be a permanent -1 to proficiency bonus when you multi-class into a new class (or subclass)?

It would help but probably not. Players themselves are likely to push for bob to get a +2 weapon when everyone else has a +1 (or whatever). Also consider things like adding archery fighting style or whatever to nullify it. Hinging everything on a single cost makes it easy to find ways of nullifying it as anything worth noting as part of the dip. If there were dice pools or something with less variance than 1d20 a -1 might be noteworthy, but it's only a tiny fraction of the average d20 roll (10.5).

 

[rules.mechanic]

It would help but probably not. Players themselves are likely to push for bob to get a +2 weapon when everyone else has a +1 (or whatever). Also consider things like adding archery fighting style or whatever to nullify it. Hinging everything on a single cost makes it easy to find ways of nullifying it as anything worth noting as part of the dip. If there were dice pools or something with less variance than 1d20 a -1 might be noteworthy, but it's only a tiny fraction of the average d20 roll (10.5).

I was thinking more about the impact on the "PB times per day" or "roll a number of d8 equal to your PB" effects.

 

[tetrasodium]

I was think more about the impact on the "PB times per day" or "roll a number of d8 equal to your PB" effects.

It would depend on what the overly good dip class abilities ultimately wind up being. We might not have the warrior group packet yet but imagine playing a level 11+ fighter eyeing that one level ranger dip for that no concentration hunters mark and one more skill and expertise on any two of your skills and two primal cantrips (the new reaction guidance & resistance are both primal nfor an extra cherry on top).

Whatever the fighter looks like when we get it that probably makes for one heck of a dip at those levels but is almost entirely unaffected by a -1 proficiency, two skills are actually four points higher than before. Imagine it was the other way around & fighter 12 gave a choice between +1 proficiency or all those other things when we get warrior group classes. People would wonder if there was some kind of extreme layout error & expect a corrected version to be uploaded by lunchtime.