D&D 5E Three level 7 PCs vs a Roc in an open field...

[The Crimson Binome]

The more I think about it, the more it doesn't sound like a good idea to do this encounter. The PCs only have 50-60 hp so only the monk would survive being dropped even once (most likely).

Remember, death from damage doesn't occur unless they reach negative maximum in the same hit that drops them. If they manage to escape the talons while they're still conscious, or if they stun the bird while being carried, they'll fall to the ground and be unconscious but they'll be fine with one point of healing.

 

[cooperjer]

If your level 7 PCs are like my level 7 PCs then they are pushing 25 to 35 points of damage per turn. I give the roc 4 turns at max before it's dead. I'm assuming you're sticking by RAW with the stun and fear affects. This encounter is about 48% of their daily XP (3 * 5000) vs. 7200 or 7200 / 15,000 = 0.48 or 48%. The resource hit to the PCs should be uneven. I would expect one PC to be near death (25% to 30% resources remaining), while the other two are near 60% resources remaining. Based in my experience, these numbers are telling me it will be a memorable encounter that will lead to players respecting a roc. You may find that falling damage in not a significant factor in damage. I would recommend adjusting the falling damage rules if you want your players to think falling is something to be worried about in the game.

In my opinion resources that a character can use include, but are not limited to: ki points, spell slots, BM dice, and hit points.

Please let us know how it turns out.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

No I meant the Roc would use it's beak attack against the PC grappled in its talons, but only if it deemed it necessary. Chances are, it wouldn't be necessary.

The more I think about it, the more it doesn't sound like a good idea to do this encounter. The PCs only have 50-60 hp so only the monk would survive being dropped even once (most likely). If I add too much cover, it turns into a scenario in which the Roc would not bother with such small prey.

Like mentioned above, I don't want to force the PCs into such a deadly encounter without any option of escaping. They are already in an open field. That is where we left off with our last session. I suppose I could give them the option of turning around and heading back into the rocky woods.

All right, trust your judgment.

Maybe you could try giving them a deadly fight that is easier to flee from, if things go bad, than a Roc is.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

By DMG rules, adding a condition immunity is "free" in CR terms. You can add Immune: Stunned, Prone, Paralyzed, Restrained, Grappled to any monster without changing CR. This just goes to show that the CR system is extremely crude--training wheels for a new DM, not a high-precision guide to monster deadliness.

It makes sense if you assume that resources are relatively well-balanced. If the monk can't stun it, then they don't spend the ki for that, and they're no worse off because they'll get to stun something else later or they can flurry an extra time.

In practice, and specifically in this case, those assumptions don't hold. If the monk can't stun this Roc now, then they have no way of spending all of their ki before the next rest, so those resources end up being wasted. Likewise, because they're only fighting one monster instead of an entire group, inflicting some sort of status condition is significantly more beneficial than just about anything else they could possibly be doing.

It's not quite to the point of Palladium, where they obviously didn't care about balance, but 5E just isn't designed with balance as any sort of priority.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I had a fight roc vs 5 man party of level 5 I think. It was not an open field but on a rather clear plateau beside a waterfall.
Our transmuter used illusions to their advantage and the archer did quite a few points of damage with his bow.

There was grappling and there was flinging the archer hundreds of feet in the air.

What my players did to win the fight was:
- using cover in form of bigger stones and rocks.
- foiling the creature with some magic.
- hurting the creature quite a bit with fire and steal.

After all a Roc is not an inherently evil creature but just a bird of prey of not so much reason. It is just trying to eat.
It won't survive on 3 adventurers. They are just a snack. If they prove to be resilient and causing more hurt than it's worth, the bird should let them go.

So with your party composisition there will be a lot of options to drive the Roc away:

Ranged attacks with a bow. 2d8+5 damage 4 times with action surge should make a statement that the dinner is not free.
The war cleric has spirit guardians which hurt a lot. The monk can use a shortbow first and wiggle out of the bird's grip by stunning it. There are possibly a lot more possibilities if you keep in mind that it is not worth a lot of hurt to just grab a little human.
I would let the bird fly away after losing 20% health if it could reasonably believe that the PCs will sustain that damage for a few rounds. A massive warning shot before the bird enters melee should do the trick.
On the other hand if your PCs attack the bird on its retreat with low damage attacks, I would have the bird probably turn around and kill the attacker.

 

[CTurbo]

If your level 7 PCs are like my level 7 PCs then they are pushing 25 to 35 points of damage per turn. I give the roc 4 turns at max before it's dead. I'm assuming you're sticking by RAW with the stun and fear affects. This encounter is about 48% of their daily XP (3 * 5000) vs. 7200 or 7200 / 15,000 = 0.48 or 48%. The resource hit to the PCs should be uneven. I would expect one PC to be near death (25% to 30% resources remaining), while the other two are near 60% resources remaining. Based in my experience, these numbers are telling me it will be a memorable encounter that will lead to players respecting a roc. You may find that falling damage in not a significant factor in damage. I would recommend adjusting the falling damage rules if you want your players to think falling is something to be worried about in the game.

In my opinion resources that a character can use include, but are not limited to: ki points, spell slots, BM dice, and hit points.

Please let us know how it turns out.

Is this assuming the Roc just swings down and fights toe to toe with the party to the death? Because that is not going to happen.


The Roc would fly down, Hit/grapple with Talons for an average of 23 damage, his beak does another 27 damage on average. If he flies up 120ft and drops the PC, that's another 42 damage on average. That math means, on average, instant death for the Cleric or Fighter, and would KO the Monk even after the slow fall damage was reduced.

The PCs best case scenario for damage is for the Roc to pick the Cleric as a meal and when it lands, the Fighter and Monk go all out on it before it can fly away. The fighter could do 5d8+30 at best or 52.5 damage on average with it's action surge and the Monk could do 2d8+2d6+22 or 38 damage on average with a Ki. That's only a little over a 3rd of the Roc's hit points and 1/3 of the party is dead lol. I guess I would allow the party to all get off one ranged shot against the Roc while it descends. That would help a little towards the goal of knocking off half it's hp. I would for sure make it fly away if the party manages to knock it to half.

 

[cooperjer]

Is this assuming the Roc just swings down and fights toe to toe with the party to the death? Because that is not going to happen.


The Roc would fly down, Hit/grapple with Talons for an average of 23 damage, his beak does another 27 damage on average. If he flies up 120ft and drops the PC, that's another 42 damage on average. That math means, on average, instant death for the Cleric or Fighter, and would KO the Monk even after the slow fall damage was reduced.

The PCs best case scenario for damage is for the Roc to pick the Cleric as a meal and when it lands, the Fighter and Monk go all out on it before it can fly away. The fighter could do 5d8+30 at best or 52.5 damage on average with it's action surge and the Monk could do 2d8+2d6+22 or 38 damage on average with a Ki. That's only a little over a 3rd of the Roc's hit points and 1/3 of the party is dead lol. I guess I would allow the party to all get off one ranged shot against the Roc while it descends. That would help a little towards the goal of knocking off half it's hp. I would for sure make it fly away if the party manages to knock it to half.

I'm not assuming the fight to occur toe to toe. I'm making statements based on personal experience with encounters that have targeted about 50% of the PC daily XP. However, let's consider how you are going to set this encounter up. Will the roc be flying overhead and surveying for prey or will it be perched on a cliff side surveying for prey? What passive perception would it require for the PCs to notice this creature from it's surveying location? At what range do you want to start initiative? I would start Initiative at 1000-ft between the PCs and roc. The roc closes 240-ft on round one and the PCs ready an action to make ranged attacks. On round 2, depending on initiative order the roc flies 240-ft and sees an arrow from a long bow fly at it. This process continues until the roc can position it's self to strike and lift off on the same turn. I'm going to assume the roc wants to be 30-ft in the air after it grapples a creature. So I would have the rock fly in to 90-ft above the monk and take the dodge action. The following round it will fly down and attempt to attack the monk with claws. How many rounds of ranged attacks did the roc receive? What characters made those ranged attacks? On average how much damage did the roc receive considering its AC of 15?

Why would I have the roc attack the monk? I'm assuming the fighter and cleric have metal armor on. I'm assuming the monk does not have armor on. Therefore, if I were a bird of prey, I pick up an easy snack crossing my field and fly off. The monk looks easier to pick apart. I would not have the roc make a beak attack until it had to. In my opinion, the roc would grab with its claws and fly off to a perch then pick at the prey with it's beak. I don't see a way for the roc to attack a creature it has grappled while in flight based on how I've seen birds of prey fly with prey on the TV.

Let's assume the roc has grappled the monk and is now 30-ft in the air. Does the roc take the dodge action and fly away or does it dash and fly away at 240-ft per turn? How many turns do the fighter and cleric have to attack a retreating roc? Is your monk a grapple build monk? What happens when the player says they want to escape the grapple but then also maintain a grip on the bird, with the intent of stunning the bird and ridding it to the ground Dr. Strange Love style?

I'm also of the opinion that if the roc receives too much damage it will fly off and find new prey. In my opinion the characters would receive full XP for the encounter once they drive off the bird and it's below 75 HP.

 

[andargor]

For what it's worth, the last I knew the trip maneuver from the battlemaster class doesn't work on creatures larger then large. So that isn't a nerf to the battlemaster if it doesn't work.

Apologies to the OP, I don't want to hijack the thread, but I keep seeing this and I am wondering if you have a reference? The text of the maneuver itself doesn't limit the size, and as I indicated it's oddly worded because it requires a saving throw for Large and smaller, with no mention of maximum size. Is there an errata? The shoving rules limits it to one size larger, but the maneuver doesn't reference the shoving rules.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Apologies to the OP, I don't want to hijack the thread, but I keep seeing this and I am wondering if you have a reference? The text of the maneuver itself doesn't limit the size, and as I indicated it's oddly worded because it requires a saving throw for Large and smaller, with no mention of maximum size.

The text states that they're only knocked down on a failed save, and that only a Large or smaller creature is allowed to make a save. A larger creature isn't asked to make a save, which means it doesn't get a chance to fail the save, which means it can't be knocked down.

 

[andargor]

The text states that they're only knocked down on a failed save, and that only a Large or smaller creature is allowed to make a save. A larger creature isn't asked to make a save, which means it doesn't get a chance to fail the save, which means it can't be knocked down.

Welp, that's logical but very poor writing...